Will the game be more interesting if neutral dispel minions dont exist?


#1

Just an out of the blue question. Like the title suggests, will games be more interesting? If neutral dispel options were removed, a lot of interesting cards might actually be playable and they dont just get “dispelled”, becoming useless.

Also, this would warrant some factions with faction dispels (eg. vetruvian, lyonar, vanar) and of course some of the “transform” removals. Hence, giving the game a bit more flavor? Of course some of the more “OP”, “powerful” minions need some balancing (like dioltas for example). But will it actually benefit the game if neutral dispel options were removed? Considering how shimzar gave every faction more “answer or die” and “must dispel” stuff, will this back fire and actually hurt the game more?

Again, just a random thought.


#2

Kinda relevant: an article written by Kibler on silence in Hearthstone
http://www.pcgamer.com/brian-kibler-on-why-silence-is-not-golden-in-hearthstone/


#3

Yes, like I said somewhere before, the most powerful cards are cards which negate the turn-based structure of the game (Opening Gambit is a prime example).
Also the instantaneous dispel and destruction spells are examples of this. They do make it hard for regular turn-based-mechanic-adhering cards to affect the playing field.

As someone then pointed out however having the removal makes certain card designs possible, which would be limitlessly OP without it.

So there’s definitely a balance here, but in general I do dislike feeling like I need to put in Ephemeral Shroud, Sabrespine Tiger and a Lightbender to be sure in every deck I want to win with.

So I do agree with you, up to a point. Because locking dispel in Factions would cause a MESS for people who are then stuck with the worst dispel/destruct cards.

I guess they could change the artwork of Ephemeral Shroud depending on the Faction you play him as (or put a differently named pure copy in each Faction), that would help with the sense of lack of variation (I know people who make a ‘Vetruvian deck’ and just 5 of the different cards in the deck come from that faction!!) and identity of decks.

So I don’t really know how to fix it now it’s there (a new race of minions which have: Opening Gambit: on the opponents next turn, your minions and the tile they are standing on cannot be targeted by the enemy (so includes minions and general spells). But that’s a very designery solution which would need heavy balance testing.

So yes, I agree, and I am constantly trying out new decks with gimmicks and fun stuff, but then when playing for real higher on the ladder I usually start losing and feel I need those staple removal cards.

I am very excited for teamplay, playing 2 vs 2 sounds like so much fun (I played other card games that allow this and it’s great!), and in those matches it could maybe be more powerful to have strong turn-based cards than it is to just remove a lot, depending on board size and the whole design of the thing, or it could be equally or even more important to run the staple removal.


#4

Saw it after I posted, good read. Agree with it.

In the other place where I talked about it I said something similar: Removal which is also turn-based. Or: removal you can react to. Like:

Reveiling Shroud:
Minion, 2/3, 2 mana (needs to be better than ephemeral to stand a chance of being played, that will be hard!)
Opening Gambit:
Target a nearby minion which will lose all its abilities at the start of your next turn.

(I gave a different example back there… I think something like: next turn, this column of the playfield will be destroyed/dispelled, or so, so you can react by messing up your board position)

Anyway, specific counters is also a good idea!

Like “All minions lose Forcefield”, and I feel the devs started this with Nightwatcher, which is a good card.


#5

Faction like Magmar and Abyss dont have dispel and game has to work for players of different levels so newer players need access to dispel.

That said Empheral Shroud (and chromatic cold) are too cheap imo. Shroud stops duelyst from happening every cool thing you do and it is low enough cost so you can play something else and have a good turn.If you can destroy turns worth of set up it should be a bad tempo play for the player. You set up a High Hand or a Calculator or so huge ramp play with Dark Sacrifice or flash reincarnation the person shouldn’t just come play a 2 drop destroy all that work and still have a good play as well.It should be like Egg morph or 4 mana Vet spell when you use it pretty much only thing you can do that turn.


#6

I’ve already thought about it and I think this could be an interesting idea, it would give more flavour to each faction, those with and those without dispell.


#7

basically yes, I do think that dispell sucks and the Kibler article linked above eludes to why.

I’d prefer to see mechanics that steal/copy or alter minions with abilities. A few examples:

6 mana 6/6: Opening Gambit: dispell an enemy minion. This minion gains all dispelled abilities.

3 mana 1/2: Opening Gambit: copy a dying wish. At the start of your turn, destroy this minion.

Altered Beast (version 2). Similar sort of card, but this time we make the potentical spawns have more interesting effects rather just stuff like “Flying” or whatever.


#8

the 6 mana card might be too punishing for its stats and ability gain along with a partial removal (dispel) tho. And the 3 mana card seems to be too weak stat-wise. However, they sound like cool ideas. But making them neutrals might be a bad idea as that was the whole point of this thread about all factions having access to neutral dispels.


#9

I think dispel as it is being used is a safety valve by designers and a safety blanket by the players.

In any game of this type with creatures fighting each other, all creatures need to be compared to the options for removing them. On top of that, it must be investigated just how badly your game needs removal. A game like duelyst has minions that incredibly powerful, with some of them having abilities that say “I will win the game if you keep me around in one-two turns”. In this kind of environment, I can see an argument for playing all the removal you can get your hands on that ends up as a good deal.
Anyway, in the current system, hard removal costs about 3 mana at the minimum. Your high hands and so forth all need to compare how they perform against removal spells that just kills the creature for three mana. Even if they were to take away dispel, these cards are still in a rough spot.

As for dispel itself: I think they have costed these appropriately. The neutral dispel minions are both rather underwhelming. stat wise. I think many players play the shroud far too often than they should as well.


#10

Shroud is considered by a lot of players to be too effective and limits versatility. A free dispel attached to a vanilla 2-2 body, what’s worse is that it’s a neutral. Allowing factions that have no dispel such utility might be unfair to other factions that have faction dispels (because faction stuff sare supposed to have stronger spells/ minions).

Also, a safety valve can also equate (depending on how you look at it) to lazy design. It allows developers to release cards that have not undergone proper testing to be printed (Like Kron). And also allows the developers an excuse to print absurd cards that kill you striaght up without answering, exactly the “answer or die” situation the game is in right now.

Hence, if neutral dispels were to be removed, I believe some minions need their effects tweaked and different forms of removal (not just a different form of dispel) must be given to each faction. Hopefully CPG will do this because it is good for the game in the long run but it requires a lot of work, which many developers, game companies refuse to do.

I am not gonna judge or point fingers at CPG for their willingness to make this happen or not or blame them on anything; cause i have 0 experience on how this line of work actually functions. I just hope that this game will prosper and become something amazing, something we all wish it to be.


#11

I think you could maybe rebalance hard removal, make more keyword hate cards, make a general purpose card that hates on all faction keywords (because targeting specific factions would be useless), and finally nerf dispel across the board so that as a deckbuilder you have to choose between good value and fine tuning for the meta (hate cards) or having poorer value/tempo but a general purpose solution in hand (dispel, transformation, and hard removal vs anything but dying wish). We kinda sort of have this already except that the hate cards are generally pretty weak at the moment and dispel is overtuned for sure.

But if your only change is to remove dispel from neutral that won’t actually change a whole lot except you’d make Abyssian cry. Every other faction has enough transformation/dispel effects to get by but us Abyssians would all die to chained aymara healers.


#12

No. Since some factions lack reliable dispel/removal options, games will rather become more one-sided with an even smaller probability of coming back (in Duelyst most comebacks are caused by… misplays, there are very few swing cards). These factions would probably be played less. Well, except Songhai, which currently doesn’t really care about board.

A lot of interesting dispelable cards are already playable. Not only that, they’re very powerful, especially in Gauntlet. Why? There are simply too many dispel/removal targets. And more will be added to the game in the future, unless you want expansions like in HS with more and more bland cards that don’t have any text.

Not to mention that cards with worse stats/effects would still be worse and vulnerable to e.g. Vanar decks, which would likely be even more top tier than they are now. Would you play cards that are very vulnerable to commonly played decks (e.g. Second Sun or Calculator) over other less vulnerable options (e.g. Ironcliffe)? I still wouldn’t. As long as dispel exists in ANY playable form in ANY faction, these cards are risky to play.

Not only “some” but many of them, which of course would be a tedious task since some cards would likely need complete rework. Which is definitely not viable at this point.


#13

It would require a complete change to the entire design of the game. Dozens of cards would need to be revamped because with no ability to remove their ongoing and on-death effects, they’d be insanely overpowered.

One of Duelyst’s competitors has no dispel/silence or equivalent, and I will tell you that when I load that to play it, I really notice the difference. My opponent puts down something nasty and I am looking around for dispels and realize “damn, I actually have to DEAL with this thing”.

It does make the game more engaging in some ways. It also reduces the RNG factor. But at the same time, it can make the game more dull and static because almost anything that’s really strong or cool becomes OP in a lot of situations.


#14

I still think the dispel effect is just the safety blanket of players everywhere. Having a history of playing games without this effect, you learn to play around these cards. In Duelyst, just being ahead on board will allow you to deal with a bunch of them. Against a couple of obnoxious cards, like aymara healer, I find dispel to not really handle these well at all.


#15

If there weren’t neutral dispel minions then each fraction would be forced to have some copypasta.
I treat Neutrals as hole covers in decks.

It’s possible to play without certain cards, ie. Healing Mystic or Primus Shieldmaster but those are so useful and so good in plenty decks, or that’s what many opponents thinks :wink:

Though, I’m silver 17-15 so maybe those cards are just common meta here and I’m the weird one playing without it :baby_chick:


#16

I’ll just come right out and admit it: I’m not a big fan of neutral cards in this game. However, that has more to do with the fact that I care a lot about thematic decks, game lore and the like. I’m also not a big fan of dispel because it can ruin a carefully constructed set up with little effort and reduces minions to blocks of stats.

That said, I can imagine why they put it in the game. I agree that Ephemeral Shroud might be a bit too cheap for what it does, and the fact that it’s a neutral minion doesn’t help much. However, I still feel you can still feasibly play without including neutral cards or dispel in your deck and still have fun, and I love this game too much to get mad over something like this. Sure, there’ve been many times when my opponent managed to disrupt my plans just by playing an Ephemeral Shroud to dispel a critical minion, but I’m not the kind to hold grudges over that and it definetly won’t stop me from enjoying the game ^^

I don’t mind Chromatic Cold as much because a: it’s a faction card b: it also does something else, namely damage and c: it looks pretty :slight_smile:


#17

I think cards like repulsor beast should be removed, it eliminates all aspects of fun in playing an interesting high cost minion and


#18

Dispel is not the only way to soft-remove certain minions. Plenty of factions have other means. Displacement effects, like Repulsor Beast, Hearth Sister, Demonic Lure, and Juxtapostion play a similar role to dispel since it stops Nasty minions from being close to you. Other effects include Stun and Movement restriction.

Mechanics such as Movement restriction and Displacement are also more fun than dispel since it is possible to counter these effects with things such as flying or your own displacement effects. You can even play around displacement based removal with clever positioning. If your large minion gets displaced, ou can move your army closer to it, making it faster for it to rejoin your ranks. Dispel, on the other hand, has no counter. If your opponent wants to dispel your minion, that minion stays dispelled. Absolutely no counterplay exists fo dispel.

Yes, Duelyst has some nasty minions that demand answers the turn they are played, but that answer does not nessesariely need to be as one-sided as dispel.

Ideas:

Chronomancer
2 mana, 2/2
Target minion cannot move during their next turn

A movement based early removal. Compare to Ephemeral Shroud and Maw.

Vapour Burst
2 mana spell
Move all minions in a 2*2 area to their closest corner.

A displacement spell that can both push enemies away and put your ranged minions in good locations. If the opponent plays around this properly, it is a worse Demonic Lure.

Glacial Mason
4 mana Vanar Minion
2/3
Fill a row with 0/2 Glacial Keystones

Glacial Keystone
0 mana Wall token
0/2
(no other abilities)

Something like this would allow you to delay by throwing up a wall and hiding behind it while your opponent takes a few turns to break through. You can use this defensively to prevent rush minions and cover your escape or offensively to prevent the opponent from escaping. Plus, walls offer an interesting way of lowering the effectiveness of certain minions.

Amber Enchanter
4 mana 3/5
Opening Gambit: Choose a minion. That minion may not move and attack on the same turn.

Another movement based way to soft-remove something. However, instead of wiping a card blank, this makes your opponent sacrifice movement for attacks or vice versa.

Chronos
6 mana, 7/7
ALL characters may not move and attack on the same turn.

A universal movement hindering effect.

Space-time Bubble
??? Mana Spell (can’t decide on a cost)
Target 3*3 area. All characters in that area can only interact with other characters and spaces in that area for the next 3 turns.

How this works is you choose a 3*3 area and that area essentially becomes a “mini battlefield” for the next 3 turns. You can trap enemy minions to removal them, throw your own minion in there to protect it, or even use it as semi-dispel in order to negate a provoke or an end of turn effect. Three turns seems long enough for this spell to gain value due to the fast pace of matches.


#19

And here came the patch:

Siphon Energy – Text changed to “Dispel an enemy minion nearby your General.”

Ephemeral Shroud – Stats changed from 2/2 to 1/1.

I’m a bit afraid how will my Vetruvian deck survive now :confused:


#20

so now vetruvian has no solid answer for ranged. cool.