Why the mana cost difference between Four Winds Magi and Shadow Dancer


#1

I am genuinely curious about this. I heard that Shadowdancer used to cost 4 too and I can completely understand it being nerfed since in happened before Skorn was implemented, but I always wonder how 4WM went under notice. Is 4WM is as hard to set up as Shadowdancer and I am just skewed because I do not play Songhai? The arcanyst tag on 4WM is an added bonus but I don’t mind that, arcanyst decks need all the help they can get. Anyone who plays both factions can clarify this for me?


#2

Good Question bro…Also interested to know that…


#3

Lilithe: 1 mana, 2 wraithlings for 2 procs
Wraithling swarm: 3 wraithlings for 3 procs
That 3/3 with Deathwatch: generate a wraithling: infinite procs

Also, the enemy minions dying proc it too.

Whereas 4 winds has way less chances to proc, even with a lot of draw.


#4

Isn’t there a lot more proc from Deathwatch for Abyssian than from casting spells as Songhai? I feel Shadow Dancer has immediate value upon cast when Abyssian has control of the board whereas Four Winds Magi only gets immediate value if spells can be subsequently cast.

This may be an example as to why cards with similar stats in different factions operate differently and builds upon each faction’s identity (as opposed to being more of the same).

Oz


#5

How many spells can you use in a turn? How many minions can die in a turn? Which of these condition is easier to achieve? That’s the difference between the two units.Abyssinian is more equip to do big damage turns with Shadowdancer


#6

It is easier to proc dancer and as such it has higher mana cost. Makes sense to me.


#7

The thing is that expept more procs per turn, SD can trigger on your opponents turn and can affect something like artifacts or prevent your opponet from killing something to avoid unnecesary damage. And you can ignore WM if songhai is out of cards. Hope you’ve found that usefull.


#8

Because fuck Abyssian obviously.

But seriously:

FWM is easier to get the effect off at least once, but harder to get if off multiple times. You can play it, drop two spells, and get a 4 HP swing without any effort.

Shadow Dancer on the other hand requires you to eithe rkill enemies, or suicide your weenies. Keeping your weenies alive for a turn requires tempo and investment, but you can trigger SD up to several times a turn easier for a 12 hp swing providing you use about 3 weenies and your general to kill 3 enemies.


#9

Because Shadowdancer is way hotter than Four Winds. Yes, I said it. :sunglasses:


#10

@mombamambo

Honestly, I currently think they should both cost 5. Four Winds Magi is a little better overall due to it’s cost being a bit lower.

Since Bloodrage Mask costs 1, and Inner Focus costs 0, along with all of the other low cast/high damage spells, it’s not hard for Four Winds Magi to out-damage a Shadowdancer over the course of 2 or 3 turns as long as you have a draw mechanism.

There’s a lot of planning to keep tempo in for both cards, but because Shadowdancer is a passive Deathwatch, it can be played the turn AFTER you set up a lot of weenies to die. So if a Vorpal Reaver dies on your opponents turn, THEN it can be played to not only heal you, but cause burst damage (making her much, much better than Soulshatter Pact).

They both can be win conditions, but Shadowdancer is typically stronger in the late game if you have control of the board, Four Winds Magi is a bit stronger in the early-ish game due to cheap spells being able to target from anywhere on the board, and mid game if your draw mechanism is strong. Making it a much faster to use card. Also Four Winds Magi is a lot faster to use late game if it’s a scramble to gain board control, giving it an edge during close games no one ever seems to talk about.

If you’re playing a more aggressive Abyssian deck (and some of us do) Shadowdancer is fantastic because it can help with destroying artifacts passively, on top of the burst damage, and the heal…however Four Winds Magi can also do the same from an earlier point in the game due to costing less, so again, the price difference does matter.

Also if you’re trying to play aggro against the Songhai deck, Four Winds can really mess up the tempo fast, since it’s passive, right when you’re getting to counter things with damage on turn 5 (the last earlyish turn.)

I think it would still see a lot of play at 5, and still be about as good, but that’s my opinion. I haven’t started a thread calling for this nerf because I don’t main Songhai, and just because I feel this way ATM, doesn’t mean that I won’t feel differently after testing it with my own deck when I get the cards together.


#11

But Lilithe’s is very difficult to set up, while Songhai can play spells out of hand


#12

No, it isn’t. Unless you mean a otk with it.
Otherwise it just involves summoning the SD somewhere safe and applying BBS, or having at least one minion already.


#13

That’s what I’m saying. She’s better because she costs more, she’s worse because it’s harder to get hers to proc.

To get immediate value the board has to have developed, which your opponent shouldn’t allow when playing Lilithe. Otherwise you can only set her up for future success, whereupon your opponent just removes her.

4WM can be placed and get immediate value more cheaply and more easily than SD. And since Abyss has Kelaino, 4WM is far more popular than SD.


#14

I’m guessing that Shadowdancer is a little easier to trigger than Four Winds Magi, at least today now that Mana Vortex doesn’t cycle itself. And unlike Four Winds Magi, which can’t reuse the same spells, Shadowdancer can reuse her wraithlings (sort of) with the help of Bloodmoon Priestess. Just my thought anyway. Can’t say for sure.


#15

That’s absolutely why. Generally the argument against that is that it’s really hard to set up that situation, whereas with 4WM you can play out of hand and immediately


#16

Ok but make 4WM also proc on opponent spells.
Cause Shadowdancer procs on opponent’s minion death :wink:


#17

@nwardezir

Hrmn…that would damage FAST…as stated further down in the same post, I’m not 100% sold on a drop in cost, it just seems like they should cost the same outside looking in.

If you took damage responding to it…ooh, that’s a pain. The thing with Shadowdancer is the removal doesn’t cause it to proc.


#18

You don’t love the 4 chiseled arms? We can agree to disagree.

shadowdancer punishes your opponent for trying to play the game while she’s out, being able to make that happen reliably on turn 2 would be straight up unfair. Also 4WM cannot proc as much as you guys think, we JUST went through the mana vortex nerf.


#19

I don’t agree with people saying Shadowdancer is easier to proc (FWM can gain some value without any possibility of counterplay from the opponent thanks to cheap spells + BBS), I’d rather say she can be more rewarding when you get her to work by having a board at the point when you’re playing her. Which happens rarely against some decks (Mag with Plasma) and often against other (Vet without Skorn).


#20

I wouldn’t say easier; just that the potential is higher. Comparatively between each other with an average board/hand per their design, I’m only saying Shadow Dancer has higher proc potential within the same lifespan of Four Winds Magi.

Another thing to consider:
Assuming each stay alive through the course of the game with depleted hands and full mana (consider the possibility; don’t dismiss this scenario entirely), Four Winds Magi can proc up to two times a turn: BBS and potential spell draw (not including board/card elements that allow for more draw) whereas Shadow Dancer can proc at least two times a turn with Lilithe’s BBS. The proc mean is higher for Lilithe/Abyssian because of this AND the possibility for the opponent to cause or create opportunities for Shadow Dancer to proc as well.

:smiley:z

Edited for clarification.