Why I'm Not Salty About the Siphon Nerf: A (Dysfunctional) Suggestion Thread


#1

Siphon was nerfed today. And it’s sortof a tremendous thing. Simply put, existing Vet archetypes are going to fall apart without Kron as a lynchpin speedbump and Siphon as the turn buying window-maker that it was. With Zen’Rui banished to the 6 slot, the premiere Vet tech card also took a hit. Simply put- this was a nerf patch, and Vetruvian took the biggest hit, no matter how indirect that hit may seem. And yet, I couldn’t be any less upset about it, as someone who enjoys playing Ye Olde Imperium.

TL;DR: OP wants tools that actually make Vetruvian positioning important, distinguish Vet swarm from Abyssian Swarm, and wants to make Fountain of Youth an old Scion’s Second Wish with twice the mana cost. Power levels and meta be damned. (What a scrub amirite?)


Siphon Energy was a band-aid stuck to a gaping wound

Kron was plated armor

Simply put, most Vetruvian spells are dysfunctional. Meaning that have little to no meaningful impact on the game, pushing Vet onto a suite of subpar minions that have a few outstanding examples of utility. But Vet thrives in slugfests because of those outstanding units. Siphon was a bad answer, that gave Vet a way to push their few shining pieces of utility material, and with it’s change to a tempo driven disruption spell, the doors fly open for solidifying Vetruvian’s identity.

The suggestions here have little to do with “power level”- and instead are concerned with rounding out the faction’s soft spots by doing the most Vetruvian thing- turning a weakness into a strength.


Part I: Swarming- A Qualitative Function

Vetruvian squads are fairly good at occupying the board, but tend to lack the necessary tools to “swarm” effectively. This mostly comes from Vetruvian buffs simply being defensive in nature (as opposed to Abyssian’s suite of offensive buffs.) The general shift here is at making the more aggressive Vetruvian minions echo the themes of their slower counterparts- Each piece matters.

Orb Weaver

3 mana 2/2 DERVISH

Opening Gambit: Summon a copy nearby
Friendly spells that target this are copied for each friendly Orb Weaver

The dysfunction: Orb Weaver… Doesn’t do anything. The design was obviously intended to synergize with with Inner Oasis and Portal Guardian. But in practice, that clogs up the 3 drop slot with 3 subpar cards that don’t do much without one another.

The solution: Tying up loose ends. Vetruvian needs a minion that actually wears buffs well, and functions as some sortof engine with both protective buffs and the few, but difficult offensive buffs. Every Weaver answered is a blow to the engine, but copying Cosmic Flesh and Scion’s First Wish are practical plays that allow aggressive Vetruvian to function without having to have monster tools similar to Banishing Ritual or Void Steal.

##Pax

2 mana 2/1 BATTLE PET
Dying Wish: Summon an Orb Weaver nearby

The dysfunction: Pax is a very powerful swarm card, but in play leads to one player playing Pax, and the other player positioning to mitigate Pax (usually by making Pax proc during the Battle Pets phase to make sure that the Dervishes come in exhausted.) This makes Pax quite a swing card for Vetruvian aggression, but the excess of material leads to premature pins or disasterous all-in plays that leave the Vetruvian player’s hand in shambles.

The solution: While a blow to Pax’s power level (something these suggestions aren’t concerned with, beyond observation;) this makes Pax play out in funnier, more interactive ways. If the opponent attempts to ignore Pax, the controller gains access to a piece of the Orb Weaver engine. If the opponent answers Pax, AND the token, they have taken additional steps, additional, or specific resources. The threat of a value engine beyond Inner Oasis makes Pax a better roleplayer.

##Sand Howler

3 mana 3/3 DERVISH
Wind Dervishes enter play as Sand Howlers.

The dysfunction: Sand Howler doesn’t wear defensive buffs well. The dream is to suit this bad boy up with Scion’s Second Wish, and/or Scion’s Third Wish, and let your opponent have it. 3 attack is far too common for this guy to ever put in any actual work, and “Protect the Queen” strategies only really apply to Vetruvian’s General units. Plus, Spellshield is a very Lyonar thing- where Vetruvian minions want to get value out of playing fair.

The solution: Add a much needed piece of support to Allomancer and friends. While this is still exceptionally slow, this changes gears on how Wind Dervishes are played (and supported.) Sand Howlers are bigger, not temporary, but slower than Wind Dervishes. A single Wind Dervish proc, creates a second Sand Howler (which continues to carry the static effect after the first has passed.) This creates massive quality boost in the Dervish generating spells in terms of board development, but also changes them from functional removal into board presence tools (which can, ofcourse- backfire if the Vetruvian player needs the burst damage.) Rather than strictly buffing the archetype, this gives it the ability to “shift gears”.


Part II: Utilities Matter

Vetruvian spells typically vary in effectiveness with each micro decision made by both players. They have a nasty habit of being more expensive than useful, or outright just not having any conceivable application that doesn’t already involve dominating the game (winmore). The goal here, is to transform a couple of spells into key “neutral”, or “reactive” tools that don’t merely “fix” what Vetruvian struggles with like Siphon did. Instead, putting an emphasis on bringing an amount of redundancy into “how Vetruvian deals with X.” The keys here are going to be “Blast Range” and “Damage Prevention”- two tools already in Vetruvian’s kit that offset more major issues (like lacking fast lifegain, or dealing with something out of reach.) No suggestion here will combine the two, because Vetruvian’s weakness to Ranged minions shouldn’t be handled with Ranged “hate” (a’la Crossbones- as faction hate cards are sortof a neutral thing.)

Fountain of Youth

4mana SPELL
Prevent damage that would be dealt to your General this turn. Draw 2 cards.

The Dysfunction: In it’s current form. FoY is a funny thing.But ultimately, to use it effectively, a player must have such a massive tempo lead, that further board development would make less sense than getting superior trades… Something that fundamentally doesn’t happen in Duelyst unless your opponent is “dead on board”.

The Solution:
A flexible utility spell to fill the chasm. Playing a large number of reactive tools tends to whither the hand, deploying Obelysks requires a level of consistency not obtainable through current means (Spelljammer is the go-to, but occupies those precious 3 drop slots.) Damage prevention is a way that Vetruvian answers things.While this card would likely never be as good as Falcius, since it lacks tempo, and is probably worse than Rite of the Undervault or Heaven’s Eclipse more often than not- it makes up for that by being a (slow) but valuable bit of redundancy in making your Vetruvian deck less susceptible to running out of steam, and more capable of proactively extending your General’s life total. Y’know. A Fountain of Youth.

Clutch of Akkram

(Formerly Sand Trap)
3 mana SPELL
Choose a row nearby your General. Minions on that row take damage equal to your General’s attack.

The Dysfunction: Sand Trap doesn’t do anything. It’s a card geared for MAYBE slowing down golems in Gauuntlet. But on the whole, the card itself is a trap. Occupying a board space, allows your opponent to make 8 tiles, plus the one that is occupied by the immobilized minions difficult to access. This card in turn tends to PUNISH Vetruvian players for caring about positioning by using their own resource to make a portion of the board inaccessible. Nevermind how little other factions care about having a minon that is rooted, thanks to repositioning tools, taunts, or value triggers.

The Solution: Earth Slash, if you’re familiar with Final Fantasy Tactics. This is Blast in spell form. Not a Blast enabler, not a slow or vulnerable minion carrying Blast, not something that gives your general Blast. As a spell, this is simply an effect that Vetruvian needs. “Artifacts matter” empowers it. Reactive tools help to offset future damage are a huge part of playing slow, value oriented minions- and this isn’t a band-aid fix. It doesn’t synergize with Sajj’s BBS like Ankh. It doesn’t lack a mana cost, have infinite range (it often requires a careful movement step to prepare), It’s just a reliable way to discourage your opponent from bunching up behind a ball of body blockers, or in tandem with other tools- answer value oriented problems with similar efficacy to Abyssian. It simply breaks the opponent’s tempo, but gives them the ability to mitigate it with their own careful positioning. Puts a large emphasis on keeping the prime positioning of the middle 3 rows (less corner-play.)


Part III: Positioning (Actually) Matters

Am I the only one who chokes at posts that claim that “positioning is everything to Vetruvian”? Not because there isn’t a granule of truth to that, but because it isn’t a particularly skillful affair with Vet, in the way that it is described to be. “Positioning Matters” is a series of downside-effects dumped onto the opportunity cost of Vetruvian cards. But Vetruvian shares Magmar’s inability to utilize effects that improve mobility around the board (with exception only to Astral Phasing). Flying minions are within Vetruvian’s identity, but they are slow, or pay for the versatility with their HP. Blast and Flying are both potential, but never delivered on, upswings to the “Positioning Matters” element of Vetruvian. The suggestion here only regards one card, with an effect similar to other Vetruvian effects to give necessary counterplay (imagine that :smiley: )

Wind Slicer

2 mana 2/3 MINION
Opening Gambit: This turn, units you control may move as though you control all units.

The Dysfunction: Wind Slicer is a highly disappointing, and oddly unflavorful minion. Reducing the cost of Obelysks is strong in theory, but with only 2 playable card Obelysks, and the MASSIVE opportunity cost of playing the 3rd card Obelysk. This guy is often just a spent Mystic/Fist, which is honestly a good baseline. But when did Vetruvian care about cheating mana costs?

The Solution: While experimenting with Psychic Conduit, many players found that the best use of the card was simply to “phase” through an enemy unit to get out of “the box” (a formation that punishes Vetruvian in gross ways.) The solution here is to do something similar, but on a more specific level. This allows Vetruvian units to kite Provoke minions, get out of boxes, and even pursue past a wall of body blockers- using a tool that allows them to properly obtain strong positioning. This also reinforces Vetruvian’s “Tricky” flavoring, and allows the burden of Sillhouette Tracer to become far less all-encompassing. Bonus, it drips with flavor.


Vetruvian Siphon Nerf: situation after some time? + specific situation example
If you could buff one card from each factions, which ones would you choose
The Buffing Project: Improving Unplayed Cards (WIP; Vetruvian updated)
#2

I like them all, wouldn’t mind seeing these at all. I’ve been considering replacing Krons with Scarabs in most of my decks. I’ve been considering trying to fit some wind shrikes in too. I really want to make a replace deck that runs Ankhs and Shrikes. I’ll prob DE one of my Zenrui to make the third Kron that I DE’d to make 3 cyclone masks.


#3

I wouldn’t mind seeing Circle of Desication and Scion’s Third Wish being changed. Right now, they just seem too clunky and Situational.

Scion’s Third Wish

3 mana: Dispel a target minion. Then give it -3/-3

Vetruvian is thoroughly lacking in removal options. Since they already have enough minion buffs that give flying, something like this would aid tempo and control variants a lot while still allowing the (currently non-existent) buff- based Vetruvian to exist.

Two Looped Limacon (formerly circle) of Desiccation

8 mana. Destroy all non-structure minions. At the start of your next turn, Destroy all non- structure minions.

This makes the spell a bit similar to the old time maelstrom. You can use it to clear the board and then block your opponent from playing minions next turn. Effectively, this is a complete board clear that gives you initiative on your next turn. There are some ways to play around this and you have to be loosing to gain any value from this so overall, it seems balanced

Psychic Conduit

4 mana, take control of exactly two target minions with mana cost 2 or less (cannot be played if your opponent has less than two 2 mana minions)

So far, there are few, if any, tools to counter early on board aggression. Small minions are some of the best, and hardest to counter, in the game. The existence of a card like this would force some decks to hold on to their smaller minions or not play 16 2-drops. Like Zen’rui, but only less frustrating. This can be easily played around by holding on to your 2 drops or playing more 3 drops.


#4

These change ideas are awesome, especially to Sand Howler (always felt like it was the bulk of the Vetruvian’s fighting forces) And such a change could mean that the devs could safely nerf Nimbus’ Obelysk Spawn to maybe once at the end of your turn. Fountain of Youth change would also mean the devs could potentially dump Falcius’ ability to prevent damage the turn it was summoned and instead keep the +2 attack. Though the Orb Weaver one would have a pretty funky interaction with Inner Oasis, and a question with Orb Weaver’s suggested copy change, would it’s ability to copy buffs over to other Weavers in play also effect ones that are summoned?


#5

First, the idea of the Fountain of Youth change is to be redundant with Falcius. Falcius is powerful, but awkward. The idea is that “prevent damage” is an effect than Vet doesn’t pay a whole extra mana for. It’s very important that Falcius stay in-tact, but tools be supplied that don’t make it such a hard staple. I get that being on the receiving end of Falcius at it’s best is intimidating. But in practice, it can turn sour quite easily. If Falcius ever does get nerfed, it’ll probably just be to give +1 ATK instead of +2 (assuming Vet ever actually gets out of control.) Vet doesn’t get in-class healing that doesn’t have a permissive element (IE Aymara Healer-), which makes the “Prevent Damage” effect make quite a bit of sense.

Second. I’d actually be more terrified of your “nerfed Nimbus”. Kiting around dropping free Obelysks is far more enticing than having to carefully trade Nimbus’s health for cards. Again, Nimbus is a card that can be outstanding with proper support, but has been overestimated.

The orb weaver cares about targets, Inner Oasis doesn’t target. Oasis would just do what it always does. Whereas, The Wishes, Cosmic Flesh or Astral Phasing would copy them-self onto each other Orb Weaver. The spell-clause is also sortof important because if we get any “ability givers” better than Wood Wen, or attack buffs greater than Primus Fist, Orb Weaver might accidentally create too much pressure with just the two from playing the minion card (if the “friendly spell” clause were nonexistant.)


#6

I’m pretty sure that their fountain of youth suggestion carries over to your opponent’s turn. Essentially, you buy an extra turn to survive and draw two cards.


#7

No, it specifically says “this turn” in regards to the no damage keywords. If the effect bled over into the opponent’s turn then the card would be broken


#8

What about just reverting the siphon nerf xD. Cause it we fine as it is.

I thought about this, what do you guys think?
Scion’s third wish 2mana : give a friendly minion blast this turn and +1 +1 , draw a card at the end of your turn.

Is 2 mana costed too low? Considering first wish is 1mana and I thought giving anything a turn with the word blast is justifiable for just 1mana since its temporary. What do you guys think?


#9

I’d take it in a heartbeat


#10

I am not so sure about the minion changes. Sandhowler seems broken with whispers of the sands which cycles itself already.

At the moment I am against stronger Vetruvian minions until Inner Oasis gets reworked to not be a win more card.

The wind slicer change honestly is very interesting. Definitely will spark deck building on my part if it goes through. Can’t stress it enough how interesting it is.

Orb Weaver change I am not so sure honestly. Sounds too snowbally for my taste.
I wonder if reworking it into a support unit that does what it currently does but heals friendly characters around it at the end of the turn might be interesting.

Fountain of Youth change seems good. However I would advice that it is a health restore instead of damage prevention for the sake of keeping the health restore flavor. Otherwise I like the proposed change.

Sandtrap rework I find while interesting, I personally would like to see sandtrap tweaked instead of reworked into a different spell. The way I view sandtrap, is that it is the counter-part to the “nearby to your general” cards. While dominate will is good, entropic decay is meh, and new siphon makes purify look good. Sandtrap in of itself just needs a small tweak for it to be competive and it is added to the other cat&mouse cards Vetruvian has i.e. “Do I play around blast or dancing blades/star’s fury?”.

A one mana sandtrap or a sandtrap that cycles itself would be rather good buffs to the card. Not sure which one is better for the card.


#11

The Wish Cycle carries a number correlation theme. Scion’s Third Wish is all about 3s.

Honestly, Siphon isn’t terrible now- but the change really does impact Vet’s ability to just deal with things.


#12

Wouldnt mind bumping the cost to 3. Maybe make it +2 +2 or just leave it as it is with 3 cost. Siphon is terrible tbh. I mean you dont siphon stuff near you. And after playing 2-3 games in S-rank, every one I met just summons stuff behind them now. I need to chain summon stuff to shroud them. I even got killed by a cassy to x2 rot9m. Had to chain summon to dispel the first one, second one just killed me because my board presence was so bad needing to answer such cards by exhausting so many resources.


#14

No. Ice Block would be waaaaay too good xD


#15

as a vet player.

it is.

theres no answers to so many things on the board. someone lays down a chakra avatar and buffs the shit out of it turn 1? concede.

its like being abyss but having somehow even worse removal, and overall less viable good in faction cards.

siphon is terrible, major threats are played out of range of your general, but in range should they move things around. this means effectively that if you want to dispel something against a competent opponent, your options are literally:

run away

face tank 1 attack then dispel.

man a 0 mana dispel is pretty awful. not even going into the fact chromatic cold has literally always been better, for the fact wolf transformation is a 1 mana dispel/get fucked on big minions and is somehow fair.

nevermind the fact magmar can just explode something for 2 mana, or turn it into a shitty battlepet that suicides itself on vaath’s ass if hes buffed one.

nevermind the fact songhai, the literal cancer of the match has more viable removal options from afar.

nevermind the fact lyonar has a ranged dispel that majorly capitalizes on positioning and has tons of utility that make it good.

hell the only one close to vet in terms of inability to deal with major threats early is abyss, but their minions are actually broken, and any real vet player can tell you that. for all falcius and aymara are, they are the only real great cards in vet minion wise.

vet was pretty bad before the patch, according to the win rates gathered by some ~120 s rank players, they were literally the worst faction on average.

and they nerfed a card that was incredibly needed for the vet in order to function for every architype, for agro it let you get through things, deal with ranged threats, and help maintain board, for control it was required to not just explode to one buffed threat. without it, you are pretty much playing with sticks for removal, meanwhile your opponent has a cannon that can literally blow the shit out of your stuff from across the map, not even leaving a body behind.


#16

I wanted to take some time before replying to this… Scion’s Third Wish is fine as it, but if it is changed it needs to keep the 3s theme. -3/-3 to a target minion, and +3 ATK to your General would work. But 3 is a very tricky number to play with, without breaking a 3 cost card.

Most of Vet’s problems are solved with a couple of functional 2-3 mana removal spells, a spell that says “Draw 2”, and possibly cost reduction to things like Circle of Dessication (Could very reasonably cost 6), Star’s Fury (could reasonably cost 4 again,) and Entropic Decay (the General reach could justify it costing 3- which fixes a whole host of problems Vet has with handling provokes.) Reverting Siphon might alleviate all of these issues a little bit, but Vet is worse for having to rely on it. The new Siphon is still a fine card, but minor changes/redesign are absolutely necessary for a chunk of the Vetruvian core set cards.


#17

Just another data point. I made a Vet aggro deck that has mostly worked pretty well… and then I ran into Lilithe. She parked a bloodmoon priestess in the back, surrounded it with wraithlings, and the game was over. Seriously. I have blast minions, but Abyssian (unlike Vetruvian) has tons of removal, and so that was pointless. Star’s Fury? Pointless. Bone Swarm? Pointless.

There’s literally nothing I could do. I guess if I got lucky enough to get my Wildfire Ankh and a Falcius the same turn that would have worked. That’s it, though. And she’d just play another one.

I don’t know what the solution to this situation is, but some sort of solution is needed.


#18

#DustWailerMeta

I’ll be back with an actual useful comment later.


#19

CPG couldn’t realize how important Siphon was for Vetruvian and now the faction’s dead in the gutter again until the next patch.


#20

No, you’re jsut bad at the game. Positioning actually matters you know, you need to position yourself better. I mean 90% of the removal in game doesnt care about positioning but you’re stuck with the faction that needs to care about it, too bad for you. Cause I mean like, better positioning could’ve allowed you to neutralize or remove the minion with the faction that has the best tools to neutralize threats in the game right? RIGHT?


#21

Mayyyyybe, you should have added /s after xD
Not everyone cant tell that that’s sarcasm xD