Why I am frustrated on the ladder, no hate intended


#1

The problem with duelyst. im sure many of us have went through the same frustration on how some mechanics, cards or factions are broken and dominate the ladder. We celebrate when the issue is finally addressed and the “broken” or “hated” cards have been nerfed.

But then, new cards are introduced and we go back to the same issue, once again. Why is duelyst never “perfect” or “balanced” we might ask. Well it’s true that nothing is perfect and we can only try to make it be, but duelyst seems to be driving further and further away from what we remembered and wanted it to be, a card game that utilizes a board and requires skill, thought, positioning, strategy and effort to distinguish yourself as a better player.

However, things seem to be getting worse right after shimzar when we expected it to recover from this perpetual cycle of reaching “balanced-ness” and falling back down to complete imbalanced-ness like the notorious card game many of us know, Hearthstone.
The fundamental issue lies within the fact that, duelyst, unlike hearthstone, has a board. In other words, it is telling us that positioning matters, which requires more skill than just dumping your hand with strong minions. Hearthstone is disliked because of this, because the fault in the “imbalanced-ness” lies within the effects of the cards. And the effects of the cardssolely determines how healthy the game is. But as we can see, such power that lies within the effects of the cards itself is unhealthy because if an ability, effect is left unchecked, the whole game will be unhealthily affected.

In duelyst, we get the option to position our units, minions so it doesnt die that quickly and have more space for skill and strategy to kick in, because of the existence of the board itself. But why is it still so “imbalanced” you might ask.
I will try to explain this through the dominating faction atm, the ever notorious, songhai. Why are songhais so good , relatively consistent and frustrating to deal with? It is because of the existence of cards that are designed to “ignore the board”. For instance, if a songhai player drops a four winds magi, and with the built in spell synergy, it will deal indeterminable amount of damage even on the turn that it was summoned. One might say: “why not dispel it?” or “you can use removals”. Which highlights the second issue with the game, when such units require an immediate answer and will probably win the game by itself if left unchecked for long enough, we determine it as an instant threat. And the issue here is this “answer or die” situation a lot of people have been complaining about. When you dont draw your answers, and you cannot effectively trade with it because of how the opponent positioned their minions in the far end of a corner or somewhere out of reach, you’re punished solely on the fact that you did not draw your answer.

The same situation applies to ranged units. ranged units are able to completely ignore the board state if summoned elsewhere, able to trade with normal non-ranged minions without taking any damage back. And if the opponent drops something else down, it will just die with supposed buffs like “killing edge”. In other words, they can deal damage to you, remove your board and stay alive to build their own board simultaneously.

With the expansion, we all got our hopes up that some cards or new mechanics can be introduced to help the game become perfectly fun, interacting and balanced (or at least close to it). However, we can agree that what we received are very “questionable" cards and decisions that makes you go “what? This is printed?” Cards that have ridiculous value or provide a hugee tempo (eg. Kron, Mirror Meld). With so many “answer or die” cards, dispels become more of a must and an option you may have. The saddest part is, they never seem to be enough with the amount of cards that are “immediate threats” and the minimal amount of control cards in the game. With the inherent flaws of the game, which is the existence of cards that can deal consistent damage without dying and ignoring the board (eg. Ranged units, four winds). The game will never be balanced. A game with a board that requires positioning should NEVER HAVE CARDS THAT CAN IGNORE IT.

This also highlights another issue, vanar. Vanar is considered to be a very strong faction because of the amount of removals they posess, from hailstone to chromatic cold and cryogenesis. And also because of the amount of win-conditions and power hosue cards they have. An example will be how inevitable the out of hand dagame and synergy they have. Often times I find myself winning a vanar (Faie this time) on board with a Kron and a random two drop. All of a sudden she slams down a glacial elemental and places the vespyr walls card and poof, my board is cleared. Now the issue arises, again. Cards that ignores the board and the “answer or die” situation. The glacial elemental is out of my general’s reach and I don’t have a dispel in hand. But I cant put any of my other cards down because she can just start summoning minions again to kill mine off. This is the same issue with ranged units, they ignore the board yet their very presence is defining it. And another one of their broken combos, Jax truesight. It is a card that if unanswered, wins the game single handedly. Just like Vanar’s walls. It’s either draw skorn or die. Due to the existence of razor back, Jax can just end you or anything you drop on the turn after. While you cannot reach out to his board ignoring mini jaxes that are at four different corners at the same time. And for vanar’s walls, if you lack an aoe, you’re gonna die to winter’s wake. As a vetruvian players, it’s almost impossible to clear out her walls in a late game scenario when I have issues catching up on board the whole game with her huge tempo swings and Faie’s annoying “deal 2 dmg every 2 turns”. I believe it would be worse if it’s kara’s bbs with a vespyr deck.

All in all, the game is becoming more and more uninteractive because of cards that ignores the board. And also inevitable out of hand damage. Topped off with the fact that generals have only 25 health, giving aggro decks an easier time. I didn’t mention everything and all possible scenarios here because it is already lengthy as it is. I hope that this post makes sense because I feel like it’s all over the place as it is my first time making a post like this. I do not wish to “hate” on anyone but I do admit that it is very frustrating playing against cards I have mentioned above. Especially as a vetruvian player even before shimzar, liking the faction because of its theme and card design. I only wish to have some sort of feedback, discussions maybe and most importantly a way to make the game move forward.

I do not want to hate on anyone, I typed this when i was super frustrated. So please, forgive me if the language seemed rude as I was really tilted at the time of writing the above post. I apologize again if anyone is pissed about it. I really do not wish to create any hate/ toxicity.


#3

Uhm first of all you should work a bit on the formatting of that brick I guess :smiley: Secondly, I don’t want to be rude by any means, but I just think that accumulating play time you will learn that most of the broken cards you mentioned are not so broken and there are many ways to play around them (well, not around a mirror melded double baconator, but that’s another story…)


#4

Please space out your paragraphs lol, anyway neato thread


#5

I guess I typed this out of frustration but I tried to remain calm at the same time i guess. Im mainly speaking from my perspective as a vetruvian. I guess this issue happens to me or maybe vetruvians only quite alot. Because more often times than not, I cant reach stuff to kill. Or I take too much damage in the meantime and jsut die to ping damage or random spells from a songhai or winter’s wake from vanar when I lack skorn. And tbh, Im in the diamond league, stuck at 3 atm. I not mean to say I am like super good or anything, but speaking from a vetruvian’s perspective. This really is an issue as I really cant seem to reach songhai’s minions. And when I lack jsut ONE answer, my huge minions just die to killing edge or I just get hit in the face for 9? And die to spells/ ping damage.


#6

Sorry, I typed with frustration in the mix. Thanks anyways


#7

nope, we lost so many cool and interessting cards because of unreflected rage threads

most cool cards like time maelstrom (what a card!) are gone


#8

I loved that card, I wanted to build a deck with it when I started. Too bad most of the people that downvoted cards that are not actually broken are like the dudes who posted “Get gud” at the top with 3 other stooges liking it.


#9

So, you are right on the cards you consider broken, but the other people weren’t right on the cards they considered broken, because you liked them? Seems legit.


#10

Im sorry, I dont remember mentioning cards that I think are not broken and people think it is. And I didnt even mentioned my favourite cards or what not, can you elaborate? Im mainly discussing on the mechanics of the game tbh, not so the cards, more like the effects that ignores the board in general (well the cards in a way); but more so in things that just ignores positioning.


#11

I agree with melkorita, every faction has its peculiar game possibilities and knowing what you are facing, and the cards it has, you should be able to predict easily what could happen.

I love Vetruvian too ( back from the third wish OP-ness of Zirix) and I don’t find the matchups so impossible, of course some ones are harder, but it’s a card game after all, so it’s based on fortune and strategic skills.

As far as card changes are concerned, I’m half with you on those, meaning that in every card game there are changes in mechanics that becomes inevitably abused
( because people like to win, so they play what makes them win), but it would be worse if they didn’t balance every season. Also releasing new cards every month brings the meta to readjust itself often.

In conclusion I think that the game is going fine after all, to make it work better they could add limitations on how many cards of which rarity you can put in a deck
(I take the HeroClix as example, because the concept is pretty close, chess with lot of units that have their own skills, but also their numeric value, so teams are made with a set value and you have to choose how to fit your units in that).

Also it would be nice to have many others play modes, but the game has less more than a year if I’m not mistaken, and the developers are working hard, so I trust in them!

STAY VETRUVIAN, THE SANDS WILL WIPE OUR ENEMIES
…eventually


#12

Please stop being rude towards new players. We are trying to create a friendly environment here where everyone can comment whatever they want without being judged :rage:

OT: Like mentioned, please put some more effort into formatting because as it’s now it’s extremely hard to read. I’ll be glad to give you my thoughts on the manner when you sort it out because as of now it’s literally hurts my eyes. Thanks.


#13

You complain about various things in the op, i am too lazy too read the entire rant post, but you for example complain about Songhai, Vanar, and Jax in vanar. Then in this post: [quote=“snowwy, post:8, topic:3802, full:true”]
I loved that card, I wanted to build a deck with it when I started. Too bad most of the people that downvoted cards that are not actually broken are like the dudes who posted “Get gud” at the top with 3 other stooges liking it.
[/quote]

You say you are sad that people hated on Time maelstrom mindlessly.

So, you are right that Songhai and Vanar and Jax are broken, but the people who complained about Time Maelstrom were Morons, right?


#14

to be honest reva is kinda crazy right now and as he is obviously a new player, i’d say its enough


#15

Im more towards complaining how people will mindlessly hate on a card. I agree time maelstrom was abused to the point of ridiculousness by looking at it’s effect. But I quitted duelyst during that period so I can give no further input on what went wrong and have any idea how badly abused it was. But Im more of using that as an excuse to describe how people just gives stupid comments like “get gud” when I just wanna talk it out, and not yell it out.


#16

Sorry, didnt know it was that bad until I scrolled up, it was a copy paste from microsoft words and i guess that explained it. Couldnt really figure out the functions either, seems like I could make spaces infront of each paragraphs or make line spacings. Maybe Im just dumb with the options, hope it looks better now thank you.


#17

Nah, Ive been playing way back but I just returned recently. I am in rank3 and stuck atm, it just seems like for me I have a HUUGEEE issue reaching things that are too far. (vetruvians, their weakness, I know). I think maybe my deck is jsut not working out so well.


#18

I agree with with the strengths and weaknesses of every faction. I guess maybe when I typed this I didnt consider the main weakness of vetruvian is reach, (no direct hard removals with unlimited range other than a dispel) and the fact that that is how vanars and songhais function. And yeah, they are dominating the ladder and I run into them 9 /10 matches literally.


#19

It might be because people are sick of the ever-lasting rant. That being said it’s still funny that you used Maelstrom as an example of an card that was hated on for no reason, since that card basically was the epitome of non-interactive, which is exactly what your OP is about. You might also realize that Duelyst is in fact less broken and less unbalanced than most other games, and that this:[quote=“snowwy, post:1, topic:3802”]
We celebrate when the issue is finally addressed and the “broken” or “hated” cards have been nerfed.

But then, new cards are introduced and we go back to the same issue, once again. Why is duelyst never “perfect” or “balanced” we might ask.
[/quote]
Unfortunately is true for every gaming community ever. Even the most balanced game in the world will have people complaining about a mechanic or unit or whatever they deem broken, stupid, frustrating or whatever. If Chess was to be released for the first time as a videogame (i mean that as in if chess was invented by the company releasing it as a game), the exact same way it is now, people would start going crazy on reddit or forums that Bishops are op or whatever. Just because the human psyche never ceases to search for excuses of failure. And i am pretty pissed of by that kind of behavior, because it is not only subjective most of the time, but also pointless and has ruined some fun aspects of multiple games. I am not going into detail into your specific points as far as Duelyst is concerned, because we already have 100 of threads where people bring various points on why ranged units, spellhai, combohai, or whatever else aren’t as broken as you think. Which is why i think that the first answer to this thread is very sufficient.


#20

I agree with the human psyche but I also do not agree with what you accuse me of. First off, like I said, I had no idea how the card was used because I did not witnessed what happened to it and how people abused it. If it’s broken, nerfed, fine. I said I liekd the concept. But what I meant about people complaining about it is the fact that I main vetruvian. But oddly enough, I was never able to try vetruvian when it was super good, I was new when vetruvians were running around during the portal guardian , stars fury and third wish blast OP-ness. Dont tell me how people abused that and use that to describe what i think of interactive and uniteractive because I have 0 idea on what happened. I only know of the vetruvian as it is now after returning and having enough to craft my deck.

As for your opinion on whether or not the game is broken, like you said, it’s subjective. Is it wrong to have an opinion about something? I clarified that I do not want flaming or hating or dumb shit comments like “u suck”. I even cahnged the title because looking back at it, it looks kinda dumb because I was frustrated atm.

As for the first reply being sufficient for my post? Are you serious? I wanted to just talk about it, Im not even trying to be toxic, except for being pissed on the first post of course. And you just seemed annoyed by how people that might have ideas on how they feel, think or like the game to be and is. And for that alone, you seem to direct this hate and toxicity towards me for reasons Im trying to explain, but I can see you dont even read them, so why bother?


#21

I wasn’t around during The old Maelstrom either. It’s really obvious that ‘your opponent skips a turn’ is really damn uninteractive, not talking about powerlevels.
As for the rest: no point in discussing that, really, we wont find a common thread anyways.