Which of these cards is in the greatest need of a nerf/rework? (November - Fixed Poll)


#1

[poll type=multiple min=1 max=3 public=true]

  • Abyssal Juggernaut
  • Bloodrage Mask
  • Chrysalis Burst
  • Dioltas
  • Falcius
  • Holy Immolation
  • Inner Focus
  • Katara
  • Lantern Fox
  • Makantor Warbeast
  • Mana Vortex
  • Mandrake
  • Nature’s Confluence
  • Nimbus
  • Pax
  • Reaper of the Nine Moons
  • Reva (The General)
  • Saberspine Tiger
  • Spectral Revenant
  • Spelljammer[/poll]

Everyone gets 3 votes.
This month’s theme, by popular request on the Discord, is a host of Songhai cards. Kara, Zen’rui, and Kron were removed due to changes from the previous patch. I also removed Mirror Meld because the Saberspine Seal seems to have killed off Combohai, or at least I haven’t seen it once since the patch.

Link to last month’s poll for easy comparisons:

Also, I encourage everyone to discuss their votes to keep this visible on the forum.


Which of these cards is in the greatest need of a nerf/rework? (December)
#2

I think none of them really, so I didn’t vote.


#3

Yeah, me neither. I’ve played all of these in the past month, and they all feel fairly balanced from the player’s perspective. Playing against them is frustrating, but knowing what it feels like from the other side has changed my perspective a lot. IMO, buffing cards that aren’t played a lot instead would be better.


#4

My vote:
I put in for Holy Immolation, Makantor Warbeast, and Spectral Revenant.

As people have caught on to the meta, the meta has become more and more about out-of-hand damage, and it’s just not enjoyable. I have played a LOT of very enjoyable matches against Abyssian players, but those matches stop being enjoyable until the 7-mana mark. Then I get hit in the face, consistently, with 2-3 Spectral Revenants in a row. No deck in this game can consistently eat 18 face damage over three turns and keep trekking along. It’s not a skillful position, either - it’s almost impossible to position your general such that you cannot take a rush minion to the face. I can’t congratulate my opponent, either, because it isn’t particularly skillful to simply be alive and then smack face three times in a row. It’s not strategic.

Makantor Warbeast and Holy Immolation are in a similar position. These cards are not played for value clears. They are played to hit face, and they usually kill one minion as well because it’s just not possible to set up your units to avoid these threats consistently. There isn’t enough space on the board, and the only way to create units 2 full spaces away from your general is to play a minion and then move two spaces in the opposite direction. If, like me, you play decks like Backstabhai, you’re just throwing weak minions into a meat grinder with such a play. Effectively, there is no “right” play to avoid these cards.

I don’t have a problem with strategic board clears. My problem with these cards is that they usually kill a minion while also doing damage to the general without any kind of board presence. Just as my matches against Abyssian players consistently end with 2-3 Spectral Revenants smacking my face, my Lyonar matches are consistently a series of 2-drops combo’d with Holy Immolation followed by 5/2 Saberspine Tigers that have gotten a buff from Roar. When playing against Magmar, I eat 2-3 Makantor Warbeasts before getting finished off by an Elucidator combined with Thumping Wave (irk, I forgot to add that one to the poll). There’s no strategy in smacking face with no board every turn, especially when it is unavoidably destroying whatever minions you played that turn as well.

I would like to see Holy Immolation no longer deal damage to generals. It’s great for Lyonar to have a clear and a tempo combo like this, but getting hit for 12 damage in a game because of “clears” is pretty unreasonable. With the damage Holy Immolation does, this would be the equivalent of Hearthstone’s Flamestrike hitting face - wouldn’t that be insane?

I would like to see Rush reworked so that Rush minions can no longer hit generals on the turn they are played. Not only would this slow down the meta (which Spelljammer is somehow getting heat for), but Rush minions would still be very strong because Rush minions have good reach and tempo by default. Additionally, if Rush minions could not hit face, this would open up more design opportunities for Rush minions that could have interesting abilities that would otherwise be too strong right now because of their general-hitting potential.

If Songhai’s out-of-hand damage has to take a hit to ensure this change hits all factions equally, I am completely fine with that. Nerfing Inner Focus and Bloodrage Mask would probably be in line with making these changes, and Lantern Fox’s Phoenix Fires could even be changed to only target minions - I think that’s great. Make this game more about controlling the board and making strategic decisions instead of a competition for who blows the opponent’s face off with Rush minions first.

Edit: I want to add that I think part of the reason this meta has evolved is that there are basically two approaches to the game right now: facemonkey, starring Reva in the spotlight, and delay until you can play an “answer or die” minion that doesn’t get answered. If rush is completely nerfed, I expect that cards like Nimbus and Aymara healer will come back strong in the meta, and bring a host of other issues that will need to be addressed. Meta problems don’t exist in a vacuum!


#5

Those three are very powerful faction staples. However holy aside, they are very high cost cards, games, especially agaisnt spellhai nonsense, tend to end long before those come into play, certainly before multiple of them. Holy I would take issue with but it is of a small handful of cards that carries Lyonar to victory, they could not afford to loose it without compensation.

Rush really is not a problem. It uses the grid, it’s countered by provoke, and to a lesser extent night watcher, and still requires positioning to use well. It’s a mainstay ability in many games and has never been a problem. Now it should be faction specific, and on minions that are carefully stated for it. It’s easy to design a faction around it as part of their identity like Magmar, not as much the entire game. Inner focus is an example of a problem version because it’s hard to design around as the range of stuff it can affect is way to big. Nerfing rush would cripple Magmar who already is not dominating the ladder, and either not affect or mildly ignore every one else. Yea rev is op, but at seven mana he better be.

Now out of hand damage that does not use the grid and can not be interacted with in anyway is not ok. At least not on the excess it is in now. Mask and fourwinds are the only reason it is a real problem. It should be a tough choice wether to use a burn spell for removal of face, fourwinds and mask let you control or go face at the same time.

I don’t think Reva is an issue her self. It’s Mask, Fourwinds, and inner focus that break her. The old poll had fourwinds and I would like to see that option back. Curently I picked Reva, Mask, and inner focus. But I don’t want to see Songhai get nerfed. I want to see it shifted into stronger but more interactable things. Spell synergy is fine and great, but spells should not be the primary way you kill someone. Nerfing is not the answer as it still leaves the unhealthy playstyle, it just makes it and Songhai weaker. They should get changed into powerful position manipulation/cycling to promote spell combos and back stab synergy.


#6

The majority of those cards needs tweaking but I went with Bloodrage Mask, Spelljammer and Lantern Fox.

Bloodrage Mask has too much value for a 1-mana card in a Songhai deck with loads of cheap spells. It also is vastly better than the legendary Crescent Spear which is odd.

Spelljammer trivializes resource management since it makes sure one never runs out of cards meaning aggro decks can just throw all their cards on the board. Simultaneously it punishes slower control decks by milling them. This card is one the reasons why the meta is so fast and since I think the game would be more fun if it would slow down a bit it should get adjusted.

Lantern Fox simply has too much value. 3 mana 2/4 that generates 1-2 copies of a specific low cost, high value spell is just too much.


#7

chrysallus burst at the top? nice one bronze players =D


#8

I made the suggestion somewhere before that minions that are played from hand get a debuff for one turn that prevents them from attacking a general. That would still enable rush minions that are summoned and not played from hand to go face like dervishes from obelisks, these thingies from Firestarter. It would also take care of Songhai’s burst combos with low cost minion + Inner Focus + buff(s).


#9

Kaleos is not great at the moment though. While you don’t need BRM in a kaleos deck I feel iffy about nerfing four winds too much simply because it’s songhai’s only in-faction healing. The face damage wouldn’t be so bad if spellhai didn’t also have BRM on top of that. Meanwhile nerfing inner focus nerfs every songhai deck. IF might need to be addressed long term but I think a balance change right now would be bad and would probably make Kaleos unplayable, he really relies on that.

Do note that the poll says “nerf/rework”. That’s the only reason I can think of for why stuff like burst and confluence are on here. I’d like to give people the benefit of the doubt on these.


#10

Spelljammer cause it’s actually the number 1 card that makes aggro so strong since it removes the downside of running out of cards

Reaper as always cause fuck roulettes

Katara cause fuck power creep

Also chrysalis burst should be changed not for the power per se but for reason number 2


#11

Holy immo, as usual. The ability to blast an unconditional 4-32 damage is still a mystery to me.

A bit surprised that Thumping Wave was not on the list, it’s a fairly OP card because of its ability to target enemy minion. A finisher that doubles as a control card :>


#12

Lantern fox should really be like grim patron in hearthstone, in that it has to survive the damage for the player to benefit. This would keep lantern fox viable, a minion with decent stats that would usually give you a spell would be useful. On the other hand, perhaps the effect could just be limited to only giving one or two Phoenix fires, which would keep it useful in the late game while still putting a limit on Songhai’s spell damage.


#13

I really hope this poll has absolutely no significance when it comes to balancing the game by the Devs.


#14

It doesn’t, the people who claim it does are implying correlation = causation which is wrong


#15

Thanks for adding Spelljammer Karst!

Spelljammer, Chrysalis Burst, and Reaper here.

Jammer fuels turbo-aggro just a little too cleanly, for too little opportunity cost (compared to Sojourner or Mogwai.) Suggestions here are far beyond me, whether making it a cool Arcanyst, or making it get more body + more mana cost, to make the effect less mana efficient. The card is simply too ubiquitous for me to really feel comfortable saying “here’s an idea.”

Chrysalis Burst, is a game killer. It’s like Jax Truesight, but with even less counterplay and for less mana. I’d rather this be support via a Zurael/Corpse Combustion effect for Rebirth minions/mass egg hatch so that it properly supports Veterans and Elders.

And Reaper just sortof punishes decks that rely on high quality minions. Can’t say it’s the most oppressive thing on this list (because that would be Spelljammer.) But I would definitely like to see it become something without such absurd nut-highs and nut-lows (like a Dying Wish token spitter or “Dying Wish: Destroy all minions surrounding this one.” (it IS a Reaper afterall.) Stealing strong minions is way more powerful than answering them (which is way more powerful still than silencing them.)


#16

It may be powerful, but who has the heart to nerf cute little bun-buns?


#17

i voted reaper of the nine moons. there are a lot of overpowered cards in the game but that one still stands out to me as the most ridiculous.
i like that bloodrage mask is finally getting recognized as overpowered. i’d like to see bloodrage mask and juxtaposition both cost 2 mana. i think inner focus is fine.


#18

I would hardly describe Reaper as “overpowered”, overpowered usually means that a card is good for the game, but is super impactful. Reaper is just as likely to hit Flameblood Warlock or Bloodtear Alchemist as it is to hit Aymara Healer or Elyx- and that’s kindof the issue. It’s an absolute roll, but it tends to be polarized in value. It feels bad to play, feels bad to play against, and the payoff is somewhat rare, but absolutely swings the game too hard. It’s broken in that sense. But to put it in the same boat as Revenant/Reaver/Klaxon kindof undermines what’s actually wrong with it.


#19

None of these need reworks. they are all win or road to win condition cards instead of tech cards or niche play cards. Just because you lose a game to the above card being played doesn’t mean they need to be re-balanced.


#20

I voted lantern fox, mana vortex and inner focus

Fox needs to be reworked. I argued that instead of creating a copy of Phoenix fire to your hand it should add one from your deck to your hand. It would still be a great card, just not as stupid as it is today. I hope the design team read my arguments on the other thread, because this would change the game for the better

Inner focus is just too good. Add rush to a minion for free? That doesn’t sound right. I get it, songhai is supposed to be combo based, but that is not a combo, that is just making a minion you summoned better than it normally is.

Last but not least: Mana vortex. As someone already said in another thread, even without lowering the cost of another spell, mana vortex would be a great card already. Songhai benefit from playing spells. Play a spell and draw a card while also buffing chakris, dealing damage to the opposing general and healing yourself for free? Yes please! And you’re telling me I can also make another spell cheaper so I can do all that again? Shut up and take my spirit!
For any of you yugioh fans out there, is an upstart goblin with no drawbacks and a benefit!