What's worse Entropic Gaze or Phoenix Fire?


#1

The answer is going to be Entropic Gaze right ?How in the world could CPG make a 2 mana do 4 damage draw a card,How in the world could give a faction a 4 mana spiral technique? Well for the longest period time in duelyst Songhai had been running with a 5 mana spiral technique.I am glad CPG made Gaze because if you can see the absurdity of gaze you can see how bloodrage mask or even crescent spear in conjunction with Phoenix fires is kinda the same thing.

This isn’t a nerf thread,This thread is about perception of damage on how players totally blank out in one area but go this is fine over all most the same thing.I have seen the statement Thumping Wave/Elucidator is bad Magmar shouldn’t have access to that amount of out hand damage for that cost but Magmar has always had bounded lifeforce.Which is at the least 10 damage out of hand for 7 mana.

Now I think my point is probably going to be missed,Yes Thumping Wave is an issue it gives Magmar a little to much reach with damage.Yes Gaze is a problem in one package it is mana Vortex/Phoenix fire but the card draw is immediate and damage is 4 instead of 3. I don’t get how people who are complaining about gaze didn’t complain about blood rage mask and mana vortex.

If you can’t find something to talk about in this topic then

What do you think of out hand damage in Duelyst?

What do you think is fair amount of damage that can be done at 9 mana? Are OTK ever okay?


#2

What I see is so much power creep that feels stupid to play anything not OP right now.

Golems should be the metric. Plain character stats that can be used for comparison.
Other minions should be better not because they are clearly better, but because you can use it for better… if properly timed. But in the void no minion should be better than the same cost golem.

Right now is a game of “i bring this menace to the board. Deal with it or lose the game”. Something very stupid in a game that sells the game board as one of its main assets.


#3

Plenty of people complained about bloodrage mask but mana vortex ended up getting nerfed instead. Now its a 3 card combo with pf for 5 damage which is using up way to many cards to be overpowered.

I don’t know what to thing. Tbh i prefer the game fast than slow but at the moment it is a bit ridiculous. I’d rather not have a control meta though.

I think OTK’s are quite fair in the game at the moment. I don’t think it’s hard to not figure out that someone is playing an OTK deck as you can generally tell since they’ll hold their cards in hand and sometimes even play an aethermaster. OTK decks aren’t easy to play at the moment and I doubt any of them could get you over 50% winrate at diamond/S. Sometimes you need to just accept the fact that you will be that occasional win to some crazy combo in a mediocre deck.


#4

I never complain about when my opponent goes all in on a Chakri turn 1 and hits me for 13 or some such, left with 1 cards in hand, because they went all-in.

The biggest hurdle aggro decks have is consistency, where their damage cards thin their hands. Or their hand-refill cards don’t deal damage. Gaze isn’t fine because the opportunity cost of playing it just isn’t there. Most 2 drops end up dealing 4 face damage. This deals 4 face damage, and replaces itself, and can’t be blocked.

Phoenix Fire + BRM, well, you still have the BRM equipped, but that’s you using two cards, and not drawing anything to replace them. This is why Gaze isn’t fine. It still wouldn’t be fine at 3 damage. The draw is the issue. Tectonic Spikes likewise, and even moreso. When you give aggro lists too much consistent draw, you remove their main drawback. They just don’t run out of steam.


#5

An interesting thread! Nice.

I think Entropic Gaze is quite a bit stronger than Phoenix Fire when we take the rest of their respective Factions into account, and while it’s certainly a pushed (Spike) card, I don’t think it’d have reached its ubiquity if Tectonic Spikes and Decimus didn’t exist in their current forms. Phoenix Fire is a very flexible card while Entropic Gaze only really does work in draw decks where they can turn drawing the enemy a card into a benefit. I actually do think I remember seeing people complain about Entropic Gaze, this is one of the places where! Bloodrage Mask can be very very strong under the right conditions, but I just haven’t seen it defining the meta or my matches the way some players seem to suggest. Maybe you’re an S-Rank player? Is Spellhai running rampant there? Perhaps consider some kind of life gain to survive the pings? I dunno.

I think two factions have three big out-of-hand damage burst that sit at the top of the power curve:

  • Lyonar’s Holy Tiger (2 cards, 1 BBS, 8 Mana) = 9 damage
  • Thumping Elucidator (2 cards, 7 Mana) = 4 to self and 10 damage
  • Decimus Spike (2 cards, 7 Mana) = 3 to self and 6 9 damage (plus potential future damage & milling)

I think Spiral Technique is costed very fairly, even Spectral Revenant is okay in terms of pure damage output for its cost. The thing with the Decimus Spike is that the entire combo doesn’t need to be played out in a single turn, meaning you can get the combo off as early as turn 2 (with Flash Reincarnation) whereas the other two don’t come into play until later. At those higher mana costs combined with costing card advantage I think these combos are just on the edge of acceptability, maybe. Decimus Spike can be played both early on and doesn’t cost the player card advantage. All this to lead up to my conclusion that high out of hand damage is okay when:

  • Its Mana cost is very high (>6 Mana)
  • It requires setting up a board state (Obliterate)
  • It requires specific previous actions (Lucent Beam)
  • It requires a combo of multiple specific cards (Holy Tiger)
  • It costs the player significant card advantage (Bloodrage Mask)
  • There are significant drawbacks to using it (Draining Wave)

Some combination of these factors (and probably other conceivable ones) should be used.

At 9 Mana I think 10 damage should be about right for instant effects (Magmar breaks that ofc). OTKs should be fine if they have at least a Turn’s delay and some kind of counter play (Excelsious).


#6

That would be 9 damage.


#7

Decimus spike is 9 actually, 6 from decimus draw proc, and 3 from spike, also deal 3 to self


#8

@hackum & @shoujokagero

I am apparently unable to brain, thanks compadres.


#9

Finally someone understand this game. I even doubt it if CPG knows how to play their own game. They succumb to powercreep in just 1 and a half expansion.


#10

To your question i must humbly reply with my own underwhelming question; so what? Duelyst is, at heart, a game of chance where if you’re lucky enough then you get the card combos to bring your opponent down from a ridiculous amount of hp down to zero in one turn, see daily challenges for reference. Although it does sell itself as a game where strategem, positioning, and clever plays are rewarded the inclusion and refusal to discontinue the rush ability nullifies that. Planning, positioning, and conservation mean nothing when your opponent can do as they please with no opposition. And as depressing and tilting as that sounds those are the moments that create hype within duelyst. Big minions, while exciting, provide little more than hype and it often comes down to the little cards with opening gambits or immediate abilities that determine the outcome of the game. While it makes me cry that Rook will never become “good” I also do not wish for duelyst to become a highly selective game where players have to play with countering one another’s control minions for almost an hour, each hoping to rink away enough health to make the opponent drop first. I like fast pace meta’s, but I do agree that allowing 12 points of damage to be done purely with spells (in one turn mind you) is insane :cactus:
EDIT: excuse the various grammatical errors (grammar nerf’s have mercy)


#11

On the contrary, of those three cards I think that entropic decay is the one that is most viable to play alone and by itself in the most magmar decks. Your opponent drawing a card is not a big downside for your aggressive magmar. It’s cheap draw and you get to play the card you drew first which is a big deal, and generally the card you drew will be easier tempo out than the card they drew. That is why a card like blaze hound is playable in aggro decks, the body is pretty good and the draw isn’t a downside because it helps you find more face damage immediately. Entropic is the same except with face damage instead of a slow body, meaning you can suddenly blow people out by drawing into more out of hand damage or at least combine your pressure on their HP with a threat on the board, putting you ahead on tempo even if you fall slightly behind on value. I’ve put 3x entropic in some of my mid-rangey vaath decks with no spikes or decimus and they work just fine, the card thins the deck and helps me get ahead on HP at the same time. It’s really hard to complain about it especially when I’m trying to close out the game.

Tectonic spikes by comparison is more risky by itself. It damages your general so it is less valuable in an HP race. It costs more mana and damages the enemy less so it’s harder to combo into lethal. It doesn’t fit a slower playstyle as well as entropic does since 3 draws negates a lot more of the “I get to play my drawn cards first” advantage with their “I have more mana on my turn to play all the cards you drew me” advantage. And because of all these little differences I think that, overall, it’s a lot worse to run this alone than entropic is (although the decimus combo is real and hits like a truck).

TLDR the decimus/tectonic combo is very strong but I think entropic is a fine card to play 3x of by itself in a lot of magmar decks that don’t run the other two.


#12

Well you got me there, I think I was just wrong on that count. Entropic Gaze doesn’t give you tempo on board but at that low cost and with the built-in damage it might just be better at going face, just as you say. I’ll think on it but I’m pretty sure I’m just convinced.


#13

Additional point of comparison: Cryogenesis, which was deal 4 (to a minion) “draw” 1 and considered too powerful at 3 mana.


#14

Most burn decks can be beaten by surviving their spells and making them run out of resources. For example, the infamous Spellhai must maintain a decent hand size in order to successfully burn you.

Entropic Gaze is a burn spell that replaces itself. That in and of itself is ridiculous. Sure, it gives your opponent a card, but it also essentially gives you damage without having to pay any cards. Dealing 4 damage for 2 to a general by itself is a good effect, as seen in Phoenix fire, but adding the double card draw makes it so that the aggro deck is less likely to run out of steam. Furthermore, the cards that you would be handing your opponent will probably not prevent your aggression as efficiently as you can dish it out.

A burn spell that replaces itself sounds about as ridiculous on paper as a cantrip that costs negative mana (old mana vortex).


#15

I’d like to see if the interaction between Decimus and Entropic Gaze(with your opponent having a FULL hand) is intended.

You do reveal the cards from the top of your deck. You don’t actually get to draw them due to your hand being full. Should Decimus still do any of the draw damage?


#16

Yes decimus should still deal damage because he deals damage whenever a card is drawn not whenever a card in placed in your hand.


#17

would it be better if Decimus deals damage for every extra card drawn? Right now it’s just unstoppable face damage whenever they dump it down and spam bbs + entropic gaze + tectonic spikes etc. Cause if so, at least decimus is still playable, starhorn will actually become a mill deck and not a face deck like it is now. And entropic, spikes and other mirror draw cards can actually be played to capitalize the turns where the opponent has a large hand size.

But entropic is still a problem for being a cantrip + face damage. And tectonic might be drawing your opponent too many cards, because drawing 3 when your max hand isze is 6, is absically meaning that you’ll be over drawing most of the time. In hearthstone, mill decks work by slowly thinning out your deck and comboing multiple card draw opening gambits to mill their opponent to fatigue. Burning their cards (which in turn means options and tools). In Duelyst Im not sure is there fatigue damage because it has never happened to me before, not even once. And tune down the card draw maybe slightly? And continue releasing cards that fine tuen the mill deck, instead of this spam draw, swarm + face damage and random burst monster we got.


#18

Entropic gaze - deal 4 to enemy general and both draw 1.

Phenix fire - deal 3 to anything.

Phrnix fire is more generic, often you would rather clear a treat than deal face damage. Also it makes opponent draw, with the new draw cards in the expension many would make aggro decks with many low cost cards that can just dump their hand and deal great damage to you. Giving the opponent extra draw just ensures he will have counters to your plays and be able to do even more damage to you on his next turn.

So hardly any competition here, phenix fire is just better.
Entropic gaze is situational and can backfire if opponent balanced his deck/playstyle for magmar matchup.


#19

I don’t think either of the cards are bad and like people have been saying in the thread they both fit different niches. The question I have is to the amount of people that have actually tried playing Gazes instead of just basing an opinion off of the card text and some games against a Decimus+Spikes deck which is a little ridiculous. That being said, I find Phoenix Fire to be slightly worse due to the base mechanics of either card without influences. I do think that PF is more versatile though, for whatever that equates to. By the by, Azure Herald costs 2 is a 1/4 and heals your general for 3, that drops Gaze’s effectiveness to 1 AND you get to draw a card. Prophet of the White Palm is a 1 drop 1/1 with an opening gambit that prevents ALL spell damage until your next turn just to name a couple. The problem isn’t the cards from my perspective, it’s that people are unwilling to adjust their decks or try something different. They read a card’s text and think it’s too strong, and voice a broken card when maybe the answer lies possibly in other cards. Hell, before this release Decimus was practically never seen, and look at him now.


#20

Entropic Gaze is just stupid…12damage out of nowhere…pff. Is Magmar Soghai?