What's the point of expensive minions?


#1

With the overabundance of removal, why would I play a big minion as apposed to multiple small ones? (Besides card advantage)

If all removal was like Blood of Air , Dark transformation, or even Plasma Storm, then it would be okay, because they still have to spend a decent chunk of mana on removing your threat.

But chromatic cold and aspect of the fox are cheap, thus causing big things to be pointless.

I don’t get it.

Do you guys?


#2

Collection purposes kappa


#3

Fun times in Gauntlet/Rift, that’s about it.


#4

If you want to play a deck with expensive minions then you can always go the control route. Just as an example, pretend I am playing Vet against Vanar. If I play the following threats(demand dispel)- Alomancer, Starfire Scarab, Nimbus, Aymara, Aymara, it is extremely unlikely that they will continue to have answers. Against decks without Trinity Oath(haha) if you can keep your hand size at 3 cards or so and have your opponent at the same or less they are not gonna have removal.

You likely will need to pack in extra healing and play defensively to not die before you reach this point in the game but I have had plenty of games where an unanswered expensive minion has won me the game the turn after or several turns down the road.

Pandora, Red Synja, The Scientist, Grove Lion, Jax Truesight, Grandma Embla, Ghost Sepharim(kinda), Draugr Lord, Grandmaster Zir are all cards that I have experimented with in various decks. Granted they might not always be the best choice, but they are definitely playable if you build your deck more towards the late game.

I have a Control Vaath deck that has this gameplan. Win condition is to stall the game out until your opponent is topdecking, then smash him in the face 2 times for lethal. If anyone wants to see the list let me know


#5

If you make your opponent “waste” most of their removal in the early/mid game, there is a point to play “big minion” (actually, that’s exactly what I do in my Zirixz0r, exhausting removal with 1rst/2nd-wished/flying small minions so my Aymaras/EMP/Mechaz0r are safer).

Also, you may want to play big minions that have a direct value as they hit the board, being Opening Gambit/Rush ability, special effect (Zendo, Nosh-Rak), or combo with another spell (double-flash Juggernaut, Ghost Seraph+SotWild, Klaxon/Grimes+BloodEchoes, Meltdown+BBS … before patch).

But I agree, playing big fatties requires a set up, you cannot summon them without a little of “removal” attrition.


#6

You can’t say that and discuss the problem (if there is one). Card advantage is an aspect.
But, yeah. I get you. Very much (maybe too much) cheap removal - I agree to some point.


#7

I’d like to see that Vaath list please.


#8

There are some interesing card choices, tell me if you want me to explain any of them. This is the most consistent of my created decks


#9

The main reason for using larger minions as opposed to multiple smaller ones is due to field removal and maintaining card advantage. Having three 2/3 might be a better use of your 6 mana than a single bit minion, but you lose a lot less if that one minion is removed as opposed to having all three of them removed.

Overall though you’re right.


#10

On one hand you lose to aspect of the fox and chromatic cold
On the other you lose to frostburn and enfeeble

Your problem isnt with removal and big minions.
Your problem is with vanar


#11

I’m in a hurry now, I’ll pm you when I can, since its a bit off topic here. Thanks for showing


#12

Frostburn isn’t repressing big minions and Enfeeble has been brought within reason. Cheap removal ís the problem for big minions.


#13

Really don’t know where the problem is with big stuff, ofc there are good and bad versions of big minions and you shouldn’t play the bad ones, but big minions in general are perfectly viable imo.

Elix, Ironcliff, Nimbus, Aymara, Klaxon, Vorpal Reaper, Revenant, Lavaslasher, Embla, Ghost Seraphim, EMP are all good fatties that can be used effectively. Yes sometimes they get hit by an Aspect of the Fox but everytime they stick they win you the game on the spot.

People always make it sound like their opponent will always have the right removal ready when this is simply not the case. Vanar only has Enfeeble and Aspect to deal with these threats, since Enfeeble isn’t used in Arcanyst decks that leaves 3 Aspect and they usually don’t save them for 5+ minions, often enough they will use it on 4 and 5 drops and then are out options when the big boys arrive. Not to mention that it’s unlikely for them to draw all 3. Same can be said for pretty much any decktype, the amount of hard removal you have to account for is pretty much always 3 or less. Play 6 cards in the 5+ manaslot and you can be certain that half of them won’t be answered.


#14

No reason really.
playable big minions in ladder are:

  • big minions with immediate value (like revenant)
  • big minions with good ramping options (like golems)
  • great quality big minions (like ironcliffe, lavaslasher and similar. Minions with late game stats and pretty low mana cost)

All that doesn’t fit in these categories is usually forgotten (Oserix who?) or meme-ish (like Serpenti).

That said, the curve of your deck usually needs some 5-6 cost minion or more to not dump you hand in 3 turns.
(really, depends on draw options, more draw=low curve to no draw=standard to high curve, and that depends on faction removal…and so on)


#15

I completely agree. Conditional removal is bad but cheap and efficient removal is worse.


#16

What about altered beast or hailstone prison? Hell even frigid corona or a flash freeze can stop a big threat. Yes they cant stop all of your threats but you are basically playing against a timer. Faster decks will always destroy slower ones.


#17

I have yet to see someone play altered beast and even hailstone is incredibly rare not to mention that hailstone and the stunspells can only buy time and with a slow ass arcanyst deck they are unlikely to kill you anytime soon so the delay wont help all that much.


#18

They’re not played because Chromatic Cold, Frigid Corona and Aspect of the Fox exist. They’d see play otherwise.


#19

So what? There are always cards that outclass others. In any cardgame. That wont change when they nerf the better cards and it has nothing to do with the central point of my post.


#20

That means Vanar doesn’t need their other removal because they have better ones already. If big minions were to become more prevalent their use will scale up.

The point is that you’re suggesting ‘Vanar only has Enfeeble and Aspect to deal with these threats’ but that’s not true. They have more tools, but they currently don’t need them because the threat of Aspect (and Enfeeble to a point) is strong enough to deter the use of bigger minions. If 4+ non-immediate 5-and-up minions were to become more common AND the game were to slow down to the point where they could actually be played before a typical match is over Vanar would simply include a few more still-excellent removal/control cards. Sure Vanar players don’t always draw into their removal, but others don’t always draw into their big stuff either so what’s the point in bringing that up? These removal cards mainly cost card advantage but the rise of the Arcanysts has mostly nullified that drawback, leaving us with a game state where top-heavy decks remain unlikely, even if several of these removal cards were to be nerfed.

These concerns apply to all cheap removal and control cards (Ephemeral Shroud comes to mind) but Vanar is the only faction with cards at the level of Chromatic Cold and Aspect of the Fox. I actually discussed this in great detail a while back.