What needs to be done to support unviable Magmar archetypes


#1

I am mainly going to talk about Magmar in this thread, but I think it applies to most things in general.

A lot of us here complain about Magmar being weak, about it needing a buff, me included. But it’s not. What’s weak, is the two native archetypes to Magmar. Grow and Rebirth.
We’ve tried to come up with ideas on how to buff or rework it.

But this doesn’t make sense.

There is no need to try to buff Magmar. At this point it has already been confirmed CPG doesn’t want to buff or rework cards to make them stronger https://www.twitch.tv/playduelyst/v/106392324 (thanks @eudaimonia )
And this is why I think that instead of trying to buff cards, rework Starhorn or whatever, we should just get more cards.
Because what is weong with Magmar and other factions is that some archetypes are not supported enough.
Why do you think there are so many RushMar, KeeperMar players? Because the other archetypes aren’t viable. To make them viable, we just need more cards.
Cards that support Grow, Rebirth. People actuallt want to play them, but they just aren’t good enough. So what do they play? You guessed it, CancerMar.
And this applies to other stuff, say, Vespyr decks.

But that’s just my thoughts, feel free to discuss them.


#2

I think aggro Magmar will be in a pretty good stop after the expac, Drogon and Tectonic spikes are really strong aggro tools, and Traex can help building a strong board, plus Magmar has the highest density of Rush minions.


#3

Flood horn and solo vaath might end up being pretty solid after the expansion, I think we should hold our breaths :smile:


#4

Magmar is super strong imo, but not in the way I personally want.


#5

Could you elaborate as to how Magmar is weak? From my experience it’s perfectly fine. It’s one of the few factions than can actually make a control deck work because of its strong removal spells and there are more than plenty of whine threads about Magmar’s offensive minions. It’s definitely a faction that can put you into S Rank as well.


#6

Sorry, I posted by error before finishing. I meant by that the two native Magmar archetypes, Grow and Rebirth are weak.


#7

He’s probably talking about non-viable archetypes, that are specific for Magmar (grow, eggs, maybe control and when I say control I mean full control not survive until 7 mana and kill your opponent with Lucy)


#8

For rebirth I think we need something that speeds it up. For example, what should be the pivotal essential core card in rebirth decks, Wild Inceptor, is way too expensive.

I’d suggest 2 mana, make it a 2/2 with rebirth itself, keep its effect.

Dreadnought’s egg-protection is also too late, so maybe a 3-cost minion, 2/4, ability: At the end of your turn, give all your eggs forcefield. idk, but something to speed rebirth up. Flamewave costing 5 mana wouldn’t be bad either, because IF you have the board and Moran-Khur (also so costly) Flamewave can allow all your minions to basically act twice (or instead of Moran-Khur the 4 mana egg transform spell or Wild Inceptor).

For growth, I think Moloki Huntress is very very very good, and just yesterday I was thinking about trying a growth deck since I now have more than 1 :stuck_out_tongue:
I don’t really know the weaknesses of growth… well, it’s also slow when you do not draw Moloki of course, maybe that’s it. But less experience with it.

I did play with a deck once and it can become very powerful quickly, that much I did experience.


#9

Their “defeatist” balance/design philosophy was discussed in the most recent Dev Talk.

I too am hoping for some deeper diversity in terms of viable archetypes. I can’t imagine that, given their data analysis, CPG isn’t aware of just how badly they missed the mark with Rebirth/Grow in DoS. Hopefully the added hires to the balance team will help them catch these obsolete designs before they’re released and subsequently left to be forgotten (as I do think there’s some phenomenal design potential to be tapped there).


#10

The thing currently holding eggs back is Chrysalis Burst. This card is already notorious for being the biggest RNG swing in the game. You can build around it with MorinKhur for a surprisingly viable combo. It’s because this massive swing card exists that everything else related to eggs is bad or over costed. If we changed burst to just summon young slither eggs but you control where, it would be very good, have zero rng, and allow the Archtype to flourish. All the tools to make eggs great are there, they are just all very over costed, if we change Burst, and then lower most egg cards cost across the board by one or two we now have a top tier archtype.

Most of the egg cards really warrant rebalancing, as it currently stands adding more is to risky because of C-Burst. The only things that could be added without just power creeping, or making Cburst worse is to introduce overstatted things with rebirth that start as an egg. Like:
3 mana: 6/6: Rebirth, Opening Gambit: This card deals damage to its self equal to its health.

Gives us strong egg minions with a negative drawback, that also has some synergy with stuff like fang/dance. Makes for better egg minions, but not strictly better then the standard ones due to the drawback effect.


Growth is close to being good, Molokai was a pretty big step in the right direction for it. The biggest issue is the old meta is just not kind to it. They do not provide any immediate impact, and are exceptionaly vulnerable to dispel. They suffer from the issue of starting to weak to put in front aggressively since they are going to get nuked down. But if you put them in the back it takes to long for them to get into the action. I want to see all of their stats shuffled around a bit. Siphon half of their base attack into health, and have growth add more attack. This lets you have big front line meat shields that will then snowball if allowed to live very long.

Kolossus is very close to being right, but he also is currently a perfect example of why grow struggles, a slow effect and slow at 5 mana. If he was 4 mana, and had grow 4/2 he would be just right. If the others shuffled attack to health and had grow add more attack we have another great Archtype.

Alternatively to rebalancing them across the board we need more small cards that make grow faster something like:
1 Mana spell: all your minions grow, draw 1 card.
3 Mana Minion: 1/2: Grow 2/1, Opening gambit: All your minions grow.


Swarm Lillith is better off then people give it credit for, however it is very frustrating that they have been nerfing cards Lillith uses in order to try and tone down Cass, where as if Cass is an issue they could hit her specifically. The change to rite was rather rude. And the change to Skorn was much more harmful then good as the best Lilith Swarm decks actually used Skorn as a combo tool. He was never really a threat if you played around him. However they have been doing a lot to try and add some support, the new spoiled card has potential, Zyx was a good release. But I want it to be more deathwatch focused then wraithling focused. Id like to see another respawning minion like gor, and more sacrifice effects. Sacrifice effects are the biggest reason to play Lillith over Cass as she always can make a body when she needs it.

It’s another great spot to put in draw back cards. Overstatted minions that require a sacrifice to stay alive, a field wipe that only affects things above a certain attack, sacrifice to draw or tutor, or cards that have benefits based on the number of wraithlings rather then them dying or buffing them directly.


#11

Sorry. I really appreciate a thread like this!
But 6 hours before expansion hits it seems a bit… at the wrong time? :kissing_closed_eyes:


#12

Yeah, I know that. But my expectations really are low. Really. I want to believe, but I don’t know how could I possibly do so with what we have seen so far.


#13

True, but there is never a bad time for discussion. Considering more then half of the faction cards have been revealed, the tiny amount left is unlikely to be able to make or break existing archetypes.

This discussion is both on ways to hopefuly rebalance, or simply for the future cards.


#14

Here is what people are confused about Magmar issue needs to understand.In Magic I think it is called Green,In Hearthstone it is Druid.The best description of Magmar it is Hybrid Druid/Warrior with a hint of Warlock.The problem Magmar players are having is only side of the faction is working.Magmar have one of the best decks in game make them one of the best factions in the game but it covers up many of core playing styles aren’t working.

While I am fine Zoo side/Aggro side of Magmar being made to work and currently working.The Ramp/Huge minion board control late game faction Magmar is what many us want to play.I have gone back forth with some fellow Magmar players about these issues because it looks like CPG has switch Magmar to more aggro or zoo style faction.

Grow needs to work, Rebirth needs to work,Ramp needs to work.Self damage needs to work.Not just flood/zoo and aggro rush.Other faction players should want this as well because they are less toxic style of play than Rush builds.So yes they need buff Magmar so they can nerf Warbeast,Elucidator, Thumping wave and Chrysalis Burst.It is sad because if you ever play an egg deck it is one of the more strategic smart decks completely opposite of brainless keeper throwing rush minions at person face decks.


#15

Whoa now, didn’t you just say you were fine with Zoo/Aggro? Why on earth would you even suggest nerfing magmars star card Makantor or the very balanced Elucidator. Thumping is perfectly fine to, I have had many long winded threads explaining why it is. Do not turn this into a nerf cry thread! Especially since you are contradicting your own comment!

Burst is not overpowered, it does not need a nerf. It is however an awful rng swing that needs a complete rework. Rework is very different from a nerf.

Yes I agree other archetypes should get supported, that is not done by weakening the current functional side. Yes they are strong, they are not the “best” though, they are and have been a very sollid and stable tier two, but without a real bad matchup thus why they are popular.

Please get back on topic and supply some ideas to help the neglected Archtypes.


#16

I think that grow is pretty close to be good, we only Need a cheap spell or a minion with opening gambit “all your minion grow”. With rebirth, things are more complicated. The big problem imho are not crysalist burst, Yes its a terrible rng card that should be reworked like rot9m but its not a problem for the archetype. The problem imho are that dreadnought and wild inceptor are too expensive and we lack a minion with high attack-low health that could be combined with them. A 3 mana 5/2 rebirth, combined with a 5 mana dreadnought and a 2-3 mana wild inceptor would make the archetype good imho.


#17

Nope I am not contradicting myself,I don’t want those cards reworked/nerf but if you are player who has issue with those cards if you want them gone Magmar has be to strengthen in other areas before those cards can go.

I love Warbeast but Warbeast is bad for Magmar in the sense you will never play another 6 drop as long as it exists in this state.Dreadnaught or Warbeast should be convo.This might mean buffing Dread or reworking Warbeast.They are reason I mentioned each card but this isn’t the topic for it but it is relevant to mention talking about buffing/strengthing that somethings would be toned down.


#18

An alternative might be to make 6-drops as powerful as Makantor?


#19

I’ve been trying out a Growmar deck since around early November, its been working decently (although slow), but I would definitely like more grow minions added to the Magmar faction, specifically one at 6 mana. Its a swingy deck, and heavily relies on the opponent’s ability to either dispel or destroy Moloki Huntress.

For Eggmar, I think the best way to balance it is by making token egg minions with rebirth. This can balance Chrysalis Burst by having set minions that it summons (less swingy/RNG orientated) and can lead to minions that spawn these token rebirth. In particular, I think their should be 3-4 token egg minions (3 because the animation of flaming stampede shows 3 eggs (1 orange, 1 blue, and 1 green) or 4 do to Chrysalis Burst summoning 4 eggs). The egg tokens can range from either minions with better stats or ones with a specific keyword with rebirth (rush, frenzy, grow for example).


#20

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