What is Solo Vetruvian Missing, if Anything?

[thematsjo]

What is Solo Vetruvian Missing, if Anything?

Vetruvian is pretty much my second favorite Faction after Lyonar, and Sajj is probably my second favorite General after Zir’An. I’ve come to the point where I’ve rounded out most of the Lyonar and Neutral staples and I’m slowly bleeding into more and more Vetruvian decks for variety. I started out mostly with dedicated Dervish decks (I’m a sucker for themes/tribes), but I’ve been pulling together the Gold to craft some of the very expensive Artifact cards Sajj needs to make her play style work. Time Maelstrom, Wildfire Ankh you know the drill.

Like many before me it’s become clear to me that a dedicated Vet Artifact deck is very difficult to pull off, and it’s prompted me to wonder what exactly is still missing at this point. Sajj has gotten a lot of new goodies in RotB, so I’d like to dedicate this thread to discussing what’s still missing to push the archetype where it needs to be!

To be clear: this discussion is about specifically Scioness Sajj decks that rely strongly on Artifact synergy to allow Sajj to personally deal the vast majority of the decks’ damage. Blast can be a component, but is not the main focus.

Let’s briefly go over some of the cards that seem like the archetype staples (we can discuss the needed cards that aren’t specific to this archetype in the comments), then I’ll go over what I think its most sensible play style is.

Artifacts

First things first: the actual Artifacts that provide Sajj with the needed power. I think there are three actual Artifact cards you could put into your deck: Staff of Y’Kir, Wildfire Ankh and Hexblade. They’re just high quality cards that help out Sajj’s play style.

Spells

Sajj is pretty spell heavy because she needs to do a lot more in a turn because she’s often going to be by herself. The three staples for a dedicated Solo deck are Auroras Tears, Time Maelstrom and Autarch’s Gifts. These factor into the deck’s win condition. Adding on, I think Siphon Energy is worth considering for Sajj (with Incinera), as is Entropic Decay. Sajj is up front a lot of the time, and the additional movement makes these cards a lot more reliable than they otherwise would be. I think Rasha’s Curse and Divine Spark make a lot of sense but I’ll try to stick to staples here.

Minions

Minion picks are pretty intuitive. You get your Falcius’, you get your Zephyrs for crowd control and you get your Imperial Mechanysts to maintain. Sand Sister Saon fits the theme but is too weak imo but Incinera is great for her body and effect. Grandmaster Nosh-Rak as a one-of provides a secondary win condition. Oserix is cool, but I don’t see how it can compete with Nosh-Rak’s immediate impact and higher versatility.

Strategy

This style of Solo deck is pretty slow to get going; you’re conserving your cards, controlling the field with Rasha’s Curse, Entropic Decay and Sajj’s Health and just holding on a few turns until you get the mana to start doing some stuff. You’re trying to get to the point where you have (ideally) at least two Artifacts on Sajj and enough mana (and the right cards) for a big combo turn using Auroras Tears and Time Maelstrom to burst out double digit damage in a single turn. This becomes possible at around 6-7 Mana, but you’re not likely to have all the pieces to your combo yet at that point. Alternatively, sticking a Nosh-Rak and then wailing on the enemy that turn or (more likely) the next can put you over the edge.

The Problem?

I honestly can’t pin point what’s wrong exactly although others probably can. It’s easy for this archetype to get overwhelmed, run out of steam or just fail to draw into the needed combos. Maybe the meta just isn’t right for it? Maybe specific cards within the arsenal have just too low of a power level as things stand? Or are things fine the way they are?

I don’t know, what do you think?

If you think you know what it is that Solo Vetruvian still needs, please let me know! I’d appreciate a bit of a write-up talking about the kind of card changes, new cards, meta changes or whatever else you envision as being necessary to see Solo Vetruvian shine. I’ve read all the ‘cpg just hates vetruvian’ memes so please be slightly serious about this if you would be so kind. If you think the issue comes down to bigger, Vetruvian-wide issues like a limited access to ranged control tools I’d be interested in hearing about that as well.

Thank you for reading until the end.

[isgopet]

I think an Aethermaster or three might help. Your deck doesn’t get flooded, but you can still get your combo faster.

[c2487233]

I don’t know about a true ‘solo’ Vet deck, but my experience with Artifact Sajj is that the deck lacks consistency because it’s stall tools are far too specific.

Also that dude that repairs your artifacts needs to be a 1 mana 1/3 or something…

[jon678910]

To be fair, I think vet needs a good removal option, as both their silence and their hard removal are limited to the space next to the general. I personally think that the change to siphon energy should be reverted, and that a better way to move structures is needed.
In terms of your deck, I’ve seen many people ditch some artifacts in favour of autarchs. Saon does seem too weak to put in, and +1 attack is pathetic compared to what other factions get. Mechanist might be unneeded, as most people will try to remove your artifacts as fast as possible.

[belowski]

This probably isn’t as detailed a response as you were hoping for (i’m also only a gold player so take it for what it’s worth, I do however play Sajj alot) but here goes.

The problem I see with the archetype and with Sajj utilising it in particular is that with the amount of of artifacts and spells you need for combo pieces your ability to establish a board is diminished. On top of that Sajj trades health for board control by using her BBS.

In other words your sacrificing health AND board presence in the hopes of drawing combo pieces and living long enough to get them off for lethal. In today’s faster paced meta it’s probably the worst strategy going.

NowayitsJ used an artifact combo deck recently in a tourney using Zirix as the general and he said that this was due to his ability to get another body on the field which was superior to Sajj’s ability to trade health. I’m not saying that’s the last word on it but pretty interesting nonetheless.

I feel like Mechanyst is kinda useless too. Abjudicator is another option to lower the cost of your combo pieces or spell techs.

[eternamemoria]

Another problem with Combo Sajj in specific is that… Zirix is arguably better. Combo Sajj wants to kill the enemy general in one turn by herself, board be damned.

In that case, why would you want a BBS that trades health and artifact durability for board control, instead of a couple bodies that can be used to body-block until you get your combo pieces?

Sajj’s BBS is more of a control thing, all in all… and playing control in a faction that lacks healing and efficient answers to so many potential dangers is… ridiculous.

On Artisajj in specific, the main problem is the lack of stall tools. Can’t build a combo in hand if you are killed by a Ki Beholder in a corner.

[paralykeet]

It simply comes down to “solo” decks not working. Occupying the board is a very powerful thing to do. What Vetruvian is missing, is mostly quality of life material available to almost every other faction in the game, and what Vetruvian needs is something of an overhaul for it’s base/core sets to be consistent with the rest of the game. Most of Vet is a series of design artifacts and shells left from a huge series of nerfs. Vet removal doesn’t really work because your opponent can try to protect something like Bloodmoon or Four Winds or Voice of the Wind far too easily- and while Sajj can alleviate the problem with Ankhs and Incineras, only getting to remove on thing a turn through your attack (which often costs your health) is really what nails the coffin.

Vet is not smorc resistant, because it has a pile of useless cards where everyone else has niche cards to fight smorcing.

[snowwy]

What we lack? Tbh almost everything. This goes into most Sajj decks as well. Heals or better ways to prolong your life. Ranged removals. @paralykeet already did a great job at mentioning the worthless cards in vet’s core set and why they are as they are.

Also mainly because the meta is so fast right now. This specific archetype is used to punish control decks by killing them in one turn and taking advantage of their slow play style. Right.now everything is just face and aggro decks have better one turn burst than a dedicated otk Sajj deck, ironic isn’t it? Oh and vets have no reliable , efficient AOE for a control oriented faction, so yeah, we lack everything but powercreeped minions at the moment. I worry that after we get some form of good tools/ removal, vets will become broken again with all the ridiculously powercreeped stuff (we got from their desperate attempt of fixing the faction).

[ademirdach]

In my low experience, Vet has a dire need for removal (which is like a normal need, but dire).
when running sajj I get some Maws, and dancing blades to counter that.
Basically Vet is underpowered because the removal is so circunstancial, that it’s almost pontless to run entropic decay.

Your goal is to use Zephyr to do collateral damage to the enemy general while clearing with sajj, its also a good removal bait.

Autarch’s gifts its a diceroll, never rely on it, only play when you can afford a plan B. It’s never the plan B.

Incinera is too slow and sillhouette tracer is a direct upgrade in all means, you can escape provokes and tight spots, and if well equipped migth be a finisher.

Always replace nosh-rak if you can’t use it for the kill next turn. It should be used to force the concede rather direct fighting. Dropping it when it can be silenced is brutal to yourself.

Think of Sajj less of of a powerhouse vaath, but more like a mobile utility. You don’t aim to do risky big hits with her, if you try to be a pesky control freak, with high damage frenzies, you will succeed more.

[fispan]

To be honest I think only viable solo deck (in high tiers) is mogwai’s smash vaath or something similar. I tried to make solo faie deck but it ended up as your usual control faie. Vetruvians lack of ranged removal is a big problem here.

[rebound]

I think this deck is a fantasy. I do not think you can make it being solo. The power of Vetruvian is chiefly in their units being really powerful and their greatest weakness is that their removal spells are really dodgy. Cards like time maelstrom are very situational and the cost in it taking a card is not really that impressive unless if this is part of an elaborate combo that kills the opposing general or a second unit or so. If you are going to kill the opposing general with purely your own general, then I think you are just making things overly difficult for yourself.

In other words, I think it is just better to rely on having some units in there and keeping the artifact package on the backburner. I am growing more and more of the opinion that the only artifact that vetruvian wants is their wildfire ankh, though the one that creates totems is also particularly powerful. I haven’t gotten that one in practice outside of gauntlet. Using a more unit-focused version with cards like the 5/4 that gives you an undercosted artifact seems like the way to go, and that deck has it’s cards available. I think that the artifact package is best restricted to 3 ankhs. Falcius and the 5 drop that comes with a cheap artifact are just great value propositions…

[persona0]

The only trueish solo deck that works pretty good is Vanar they have the removal and aoe artifacts and spells to pull it off. With Concealing shroud they stall the game and keep their artifacts longer.

Keeping artifacts is saji biggest weakness and if vet had conceling shroud Oh BOY we would see lot more saji being played. Far off threats are a big issue for vet ankah works but gets taken out quick. Rasha’s curse works but if that creature is buffed. . . Incinera works but you have to be close or have ankah to reach.

My biggest gripe is that we are only allowed three artifacts to wear I want to wear them all be blinded out it Artifact goodness but NOOOOOOOOOO only three… Maybe I should pray to Makantor.

Ps: their spell are very lacking usually buffing a monster they have very few removal spells which hinders a soloish deck

[mmf]

Health. Vetruvian is the one faction whose most impactful minion control spells are focused around the positioning of its own general. In face of this downside we are given only the death of Aymara healer, falcius, and neutral options to help preserve our health. If we can be given cheaper, more reliable ways of either recovering or protecting general health then perhaps artifact vet would be given a better chance to last until ideal combos can surface. However, the true issue of Artifact vet is that our really powerful attacks take both extensive board set up and are often outclassed by the potential of other faction otks (in looking at you magmar fanatics). Our desire to make it to late game reflects the importance that proper board set up has for the success of any vet deck.