Vetruvian Siphon Nerf: situation after some time? + specific situation example


#1

Now, before anyone reads something into this thread it’s not:

  • I know 2 matches means nothing in terms of general capability of a faction, nor am I going to make a statement about the general status of Vetruvian.
  • Rather, I am asking about what others think about the status.
  • I am also asking for ways to cope with situations like these.

Until yesterday I didn’t have a big problem with the Siphon nerf, in a lot of matches I played it was inconvenient but solved with 3rd wish or some other stuff. It wasn’t that much of a deal really. I also don’t play Vetruvian that much btw.
But yesterday… oh my!
I have to now admit that Vetruvian can feel truly helpless now in certain match-ups without ‘global control spells’ (and again, not saying those situations are common or anything!).


Situation:
I played against a Lilith Abyssian player the other day who put his general in a corner of the map with his bloodmoon priestess besides it and making sure with BBS and some kills that turn they were enveloped/covered in wraithlings.

It was at the start of the game and there was nothing I could do, with that deck.
Nothing at all.

I had entropic decay, 3rd wish, astral phasing, siphon energy and lightbender in my deck, maybe even an ephemeral scout. None of that works, at all.

I was seriously desperate and the match was not fun at all, I couldn’t do anything, even though I was at full health I could do nothing but wait for him to develop and kill me, or hope he’d make a mistake.

After the match I checked to see what I could have put in the deck to deal with the BMP in such a location (and by ‘deal with’, I mean a solution in the form of a single card solving it the same turn).

Vetruvian:

  • Circle of Desiccation
    Neutral:
    /

That’s IT.

The soft-solves (meaning more than a turn or more than 1 card or a specific board situation needed):
Vetruvian:

  • Starfire Scarab (and next turn hopefully blast the BMP)
  • Blast artifact + 2 turns OR a general attack buff OR Time Warp
  • 2 Bone Swarms (only works if the general is next to the BMP, it was in my situation though)
  • Blindscorch + Psychic Conduit and some board state that can kill it off
    Neutral:
  • Repulsor Beast (and move in with something big ebough to kill BMP) (also Ghost Lynx and Paddo, I guess)
  • Dust Wailer (only when the BMP is at the ‘right side’ of the board)
  • Ironclad (when it dies)
  • 3x Skorn in a row, 3x Bloodtear Alchemist in a row or a combination of the two
  • Ranged minions, and them living long enough to shoot it

That seems pretty bad. Did I miss anything?

So, what are people’s conclusions? Is that just the one matchup where you have to do everything in your power to prevent that situation, or is there more?
And what would you all do in this situation?

I am just curious… and tempted to now run 2x CoD in every Vetruvian deck, although the guy had that situation at the latest at 5 mana cores, so it would be very painful to just have to wait 3 turn for the 8 mana.

Maybe I should add some ranged neutrals? Or just not care because the situation is rare? What do you think?


Highlighting some issues with Vetruvian
#2

Welcome to the world of everybody who plays vetruvian since the patch.

It’s very common because BMP is an archetype staple, and it can happen with any value generator; the only difference being that a fully-encircled BMP won’t let you get close as a matter of mechanics, but any other long-range value generator will just run away and then it’s a matter of space.

Personally I don’t understand why people don’t like CoD, but I also think Spinecleaver should be in every Sajj deck soooooo

As far as that scenario, I’d look for ankh + BBS, but failing that, probably lose the game.


#3

I adore Circle but i don’t think I can afford more than one of them in a deck.

But yeah… the nerf still hurts. I understand because establishing general based whatever new flavor and theme of the faction but balance wise it was and still feels so unnecessary.


#4

All I can think of is Saberspine Tiger. However, the 3 drop spot is probably already very crowded.

Also, Why run Circle of Desiccation when you can run

Limacon of Dehydration?
Or Cardioid of Evaporation?
Or Lemniscate of Dissolution?
Or Rhodonea of Exsiccation?


#5

Counterplay Games hates Vetruvian with a passion, you just need to look at the recent history of consecutive nerfs it got from them. Remember when this faction had its own unique ability called Blast? You don’t — because out of 3(THREE) cards that have this keyboard one is an artifact that also needs other cards to get the most use of it while the other 2(TWO) are completely dead and unplayable.
The Flying theme of Vet faction cards has been dead on arrival and isn’t competitive in the slightest. Meanwhile every other faction with 2 and more flavors has at least 5-6 cards that possess the keyword abilities. And don’t even get me started on this “up close and personal” stuff they’re trying to push with the gutting of Siphon.


#6

Conduit can be useful here even without Blindscorch combos. You just need an opening to get a tiger or a shroud in there.

But I do agree that the current situation with Vet and ranged/protected annoyances is… annoying.


#7

Sabrespine cannot penetrate the wraithling wall, so only works when it’s being set up if the opponent needs more than 1 turn. In which case flying works too.

@fgdsmaster Respectfully: No they don’t, frankly it’s a silly thing to think when talking about one of the fundamental pillars of their game. Also, Starfire Scarab is quite good. Also, imho, the flying works well, I’m enjoying my dervish deck with 3rd wish, it’s usually very advantageous.
And as a last point, there’s only 2 Celerity minions in Lyonar and only 2 minions with Deathwatch for Abyssian (you’re not counting the Ankh either).

@qeltar yup you’re right, you can Conduit a wraithling, forgot about that, thanks. That actually solves it for me… I think I’ll run Conduit. Also I guess I forgot the 2/1 blast minion, but yeah, it needs 2 turns where the Scarab needs 1.


#8

@Aeruniel When it comes to Abyssian and their Deathwatch apart from BMP and SD there are also Deathfire Crescendo and Soul Grimwar. With any Lilithe deck these 2 cards have easy setup and massive payoff.
For Vetruvians there was the 3rd wish that gave +3/+3 and blast but it too was taken away with nothing given in return.
Lyonar has never felt shortage of faction flavor especially since they have both Zeal and a lot of healing-related mechanics.


#9

I feel exactly the same way. I gotta say, vet went through a lot with a single card change. I miss it.


#10

What is this vetruvian faction you speak of? I’ve never seen this faction in game at all, I’ve only been gone for a few days, is it a new patch or something I missed?


#11

yes i think this is a real problem as well, every other faction has some sort of expensive (card wise) spell or creature to compensate for their weakness for example vanar’s single target removals focus, they were still given frostburn songhai is supposed to runout of steam but they were given ridiculous draw power (what is songhai weakness anyway?). vet however had its only answer to distant targets removed and has to suffer its flaw without any way to reasonably compensate. at this point i would settle for a 2 mana old siphon energy. also i dont want to start a thread but have other people been drawing the exact same card they replaced? some i assume i draw one of the other of the same card in my deck but once i could confirm i drew the same card because i had all 3 in my hand, i also think this is a problem because one of the tips says that you cannot draw the same card you replace.


#12

I believe your replace problem is a glitch, as it has happened to others (my self included) both in starting hand and with drawing the card you replaced consecutively.


#13

i believe this problem needs to be reported because it really kills the replace mechanic.


#14

This doesn’t belong in this thread. But you can get a copy of the card you replace in the opening mulligan, which doesn’t follow the same rules. You can’t get the card you replaced or a copy of it in the game afterwards, but you can draw it at the end of turn draw phase.


#15

If you won as vetruvian, you beat not only your opponent but Counterplay as well.
The faction is expensive and piss poor weak, but I like the design and i’ll stick to it until i get bored like last year and move on again.
Replays for s rank or diamond have rarely a vetruvian, clogging up are ez win magmar and songhai girl.


#16

Honestly since the nerf I switched to the only Vet deck that I had that did not run siphon energy, Miracle Sajj…

Still had to make a ton of changes, however since Songhai got nerfed, I think it is far better due to not being strictly slower than said deck. Also settling for a 2 mana siphon is ridiculous when you consider mana burn which is only 2 mana in vanar (chromatic cold). For fairness’ sake I would like to see siphon changed to 1 mana and chromatic cold changed to 3 mana since it is a bundle effect to begin with.

At the moment the new mana vertex is STILL better than the current siphon energy (and that is saying something) since you are guaranteed to get one mana worth of tempo from mana vertex, while with siphon you frankly do not even have a consistent target to at-least take advantage of arcanyst synergy.

Also that the nearby your general spells only have an effective area of 8 hexes, compared to shroud(on an empty board) of 28 hexes. This is why dominate will isn’t considered broken at 7 mana, for it has a rather pathetic effective area.

The only time that these nearby your general spells have their clause matter, is when the enemy general is in a corner of the map. However if you are trapped in a corner of the map, you are going to lose anyway since 2 enemy minions with at-least 3 health(plus enemy general) prevents your general from minion summoning in most cases.

Finally if Counterplay is reducing the strength of global removal (or soft removal in the case of siphon), they must also address the range keyword (blast keyword too to a certain extent but there is more counterplay to blast in the game at the very least), and songhai’s board positioning spells like dragon mist seal.

For if getting say a ranged minion/four winds magi across the map should be a win condition in itself (due to the nerfing of global removal making it more likely), then one mana spells ought not enable such scenarios without them being very situational. I.e. take for example Vetruvian’s two flying keyword granting spells. Third wish, which gives a strong buff alongside it(meaning that it still gives value even without flying factored in), has the harsh requirement of being for the dervish tribe only. Meaning it has to be comboed with other cards like dunecaster if used on a wind dervish, or it can be used on a dervish that has survived one turn.

This isn’t too bad in of itself, however dervishes so far are small weak minions, with the most reliable of them being from the bbs of which dies to 2 damage unless pre-buffed (pre-buffing is typically a bad play, however in this scenario windstorm obelysk actually gets some value for literally doubling the survivability of your iron dervishes).

While astral phasing, is a completely defensive buff, that can lose the majority of its value from a simple dispel(due to how health buffs work when dispelled). It isn’t a bad spell in my experience, however it is one that you only want to use when the flying keyword is relevant i.e. buffing a 4/4 to kill a four wings magi out of reach. Since then at-least gained positioning value. I.e. denied a faraway spawn for other units and opened a spawn for say starfire scarabs.


#17

I definitely feel the siphon nerf was quite unwarranted but I don’t feel the situation is as bad as everyone wildly claims it to be. I’ve played Vet to S for the last 3 seasons now and so far I haven’t found the lack of siphon to be very troubling, in fact even before siphon was nerfed I was only running 3x shroud

Currently in my list I am running 2x Third wish and even 1x circle (its actually bailed me out and won me quite a few games when they’ve gone late and I’ve fallen behind) and I’ve found that these cards along with the other typical tools like duncaster + Rashas is usually enough reach to deal with any threat thats parked in a corner like a 4 winds, shadowdancer, Kelaino, etc. Not to mention that shaping the action of the game through obelisk placement is very important and enables stronger positioning to deal with those threats

I think Dervish Vet is quite quite strong right now in the meta, especially after this patch having a good matchup against Spellhai, Lyonar and Cass and I think that dealing with these threats comes down to understanding the matchup, knowing which cards to look for and how to conserve/expend you’re resources; which are very important aspects to playing Dervish vet - or any Vet for that matter, correctly. In fact I think Sajj took a much bigger hit from that nerf Zirix did

To say that Vet insta loses to a threat parked in a corner is quite preposterous; there are going to be some games like OPs where you just lose to draw rng/spawn rng or both whether it be to a bloodmoons or obelisks spawns but generally speaking all of Vet’s matchups are still very winnable

Also too its just one silly match, I completely sympathize with some games being frustrating despite your best efforts but thats also the reality of a card game


#18

That kind of abyssian deck is one of the worst matchups for vetruvian.

My advice is to pray they do not find a souldancer and just focus on killing the opposing general. Remember that this priest does not actually matter if they are dead.

Also, I do not think the siphon nerf really did a whole lot in this matchup’s outcome before anyway. The priest is dependent on there being a lot of weak units on the board to begin with. You can play around that gamestate.


#19

That was the thing, it killed Sajj, literally. The scenario where by someone parked something in a corner and insta loses refers to midrange Zirix and almost every variant of Sajj decks. Dervish Vet was kinda unaffected mainly because the obelysks and dervishes grant enough reach , has third wish available and also an overwhelming board presence.

What can a Sajj do? Chain summon mystics to a four winds, Kelaino? Develop a 3 mana artifact with 0 board when the faction is about board presence and try to get Falcius / bbs off cd to kill some distant target like fourwinds with prior positioning? Falcius+ ankh +bbs or Falcius + bbs+ tracer to reach a kelaino? It’s ridiculous.


#20

No i definitely agree with that point Sajj took a massive blow; Im not sure if OP was playing Zirix or Sajj, I assumed Zirix because most people playing Sajj are back in it for the memes these days. But yeah Sajj got absolutely screwed over by that change feelsbadman