IMO at the moment, vetruvian is stronger than it should be. The main reason I think for this is their removal. and what do you guys think? Or is it just me?
For the longest time, Vetruvian has been the…joke… faction. After the siphon nerf, it’s nearly non-existent answers to ranged (or more than 3 tiles away) had been reduced to tough to pull out/profit from blast and flying mechanics.
BOA is a costly removal that provides little on it’s own (but a lot when used properly) and often cripples the Vetruvian players ability to act on the turn played. Costly, but necessary in nearly any Vet deck to avoid auto losses to range based decks.
Sandswirl is yet another costly, but effective answers for Vetruvian. Another “OP” answer that appears mostly late game. It plays to Vetruvians inherent “snowball” ability that only really works in swarms supplemented by obelisks or after a turn of extreme vulnerability (it also adds 1 tile worth of ranged removal!
so long as you don’t chain summon Whoopee!)
Both are answers that come late in the game and provide little in changing the game in your favor unless you and you’re opponent have been duking it out pretty evenly. They’re necessary in that they help Vetruvian regain tempo/swing in a game where other factions can easily overtake them without it.
TLDR: Yes they’re powerful, but they’re not powerful enough by themselves and other factions usually have better options available to them.
What faction do you play? Could you share the deck that you used (or like to use most)? What’s your rank? Would you like to add me or someone else to play in game?
I am using this deck and currently, I am diamond, but last season I pushed to S-rank with this deck.
Then you understand to play, more-so than I. I can see why you would complain about it, due to cards like Reaper and Desolator. I’ve begun to notice (or theorize) that Duelyst/CPG/Bamco hasn’t really chosen to address the complaints about OP feeling cards (Lavaslasher, Punish, etc.), but have circumvented it by instilling other well designed and equally strong cards (Thunderhorn, Desolator). With that, they are strong cards, but only on par or slightly above the current strenght level of so many other recent cards.
Side topic: That Healing Mystic seems seriously out of place. Couldn’t you find better?
It’s just you. Vet has 2 decent spot removals which both cost 5 mana I.e playing them usually takes their entire turn. And sandswirl isn’t even that good because most minions in this game have rush\opening gambits so you really don’t wanna use him on them. I have 8 vet decks and he is only a 2 off in one of them because of that. And because the 5 mana slot for vet is oversaturated atm.
Just don’t make plays against vet that get punished by boa like playing aymara on 6 when your opponent has more board. Plays like this will lose you games against vet.
What I feel like though they usually have enough tempo through the previous turns which allows them to use a whole turn for the removal. The problem with these cards is they don’t let minion die. It is a transform and the other is a bounce back to hand.
Then you have to do something about that tempo before playing your big minions. You have the cards for that. Grasp, pony and sphere. Boa sucks on an even boardstate and even more when behind but it can snowball heavily when your ahead, just keep this in mind against vet.
No. It’s straight up better than Dark Transformation, providing not only a 2/2 instead of a 1/1, but rush as well (it does vanish, but that’s an issue very seldomly). It’s absolutely stellar on its own.
Still an understatement, it is a complete come-back mechanic in 1 card.
No, a full comeback or massive sprint ahead is never a ‘crippling turn’. Calling a turn where you play BoA crippling is the opposite of reality.
Sandswirl is not on the same level imo (everything I write is imo).
Sandswirl is fine imo, BoA is borderline OP, but borderline, so I think it’s not really, although a slight nerf wouldn’t surprise me.
The only persons avoiding reality are those heralding BoA is actually powerful instead of the crutch the faction is forced to play.
This card is neither overpowered nor half the time even good, it is however, necessary, and that’s a important distinction to make.
The mere suggestions of nerfs to the card is ludicrous.
It blows dark transformation out of the water in terms of the effect. Getting a dervish with rush sets up scenarios where you can kill anything and deal some damage or even trade the dervish in with another damaged or small unit. Not to mention that it transforms the target, which bypasses dying wish.
Now sure, dark transformation is not exactly premium removal (that would be punish/darkfire sacrifice with their respective general), but it is the core removal in the hard removal faction. My issue with BoA is that it is essentially a better version of dark transformation in a faction that does not get the good removal as part of its design.
Vetruvians did not get infinite range removal. They were supposed to deal with distant threats in other ways, such as flying, blast or cards like star’s fury. The card BoA homogenized the faction with abyssian. Additionally, vetruvian did have other strengths like pretty amazing units such as nimbus that I interpreted as a bonus they receive due to their bad removal. This is now a freebie. Personally, I would have preferred that BoA was never printed.
I also disagree that it is a necessity. Vetruvian was a contender before this card existed. It is a safety blanket for players that do not play to vetruvian’s strength.
It was a contender alright. But all they could play was aggro because playing late game without any removal is just impossible. Not to mention autolosing to bmps every now and then. Every faction needs to have some sort of ranged removal otherwise your stuck with a design faux pas like the the pre ab vet. Comparing it to dark transformation is just dump because dark transformation is utter trash. Given the cost boa’s effect is just right.
I’m going to list all the single target hard removal in duelyst, from best to worst in my opinion, synergies with other cards in the game do affect the rankings:
- aspect of shimzar
- aspect of the ravenger
- natural selection
- hailstone prison
- ritual banishing
- onyx bear seal
- blood of air
- sandswirl reader
- thumping wave
- egg morph (you saw nothing @humancalc)
- dark transformation
- entropic decay
- dominate will
- choking tendrils
- sky burial
I didn’t include aspect of the wrym/mountians as those are not used as removal.
As you can see blood of air is in the middle of the pack as far as removal goes, and sandswirl is even lower, the only faction with worse removal than vetruvian is lyonar. It’s not just you who thinks this way, but that doesn’t mean that you are right. The main reason vet is so strong at the moment is that azure summoning is really good and obleysks are still doing their thing.
Is poor old Egg Morph now a forgotten thing now?
I don’t think all the cards you listed qualify. Cards that bounce (note: in one draw duelyst) and cards that leave your opponent with something valuable like a minion are not really hard removal.
I would not call dark transformation utter trash either. I think it is exactly where removal should be that is so unconditional.
my definition of hard removal is simply that the target is no longer on the board, I think it is the easiest way of doing things. I didn’t talk about how fair the cards are, only their overall power level, and dark transform is one of the worst in the game.
I definetely don’t want to play a game with duelyst level minions and dark transformation level removal… That would be a disaster… Why even play removal that’s more expensive then its target and leaves you with literally nothing on the board. Your better of playing threats only in that case. Guess Timmy would love such a game where he can play all those big fancy minions without seeing them removed but a good strategy game looks different imo
I disagree. The game where removal is appropriately costed for the units it takes care of is a far more interesting one. You would need to rely on your units to manage the opponent’s board rather than the composition of your hand of cards. Your hard removal would be reserved for only the critical targets.
Many games feature undercosted or overpowered removal. This is to decrease board complexity and to act as a rubber band. This is not good nor bad. It is a valid approach. Not using hard removal in a strategy game also works. It just puts a different emphasis.
A card game where hard removal doesn’t exist can be very deep and compelling, like middle-earth or the babylon five CCG. Removal is not by any means a necessity to a good strategy game.
A game with efficient removal does have one important bonus: It now has a safety valve! This allows for the designers to slip up and make a card that is too good to stay in play, because you get to cheaply kill it. In that context I understand that vetruvian needed something to do with distant targets. The value arcanysts that were introduced in the same expansion could very easily go out of control if not contested after all. I wish these were balanced more tightly that we did not need an effect like that. Now that we are here, I still wanted vetruvian to do its own thing instead of getting a DT knock-off.
You don’t play vet, do you?
No offense, buy you sound just salty that vet got a better version of a card Abyssian have. Abyssian doesn’t even need a card like BoA
That’s why i said “Duelyst level minions and dark transformation level removal”. I would be fine with more honest removal in the game, but before that we need honest minions. I don’t wanna fight Revenant and Aymare healer with Dark Transformation level of removal that’s like throwing spears after Tanks.
However, if the minions were appropriate then sure that would work. I also play Shardbound and there the cheapest hard removal costs 4 mana and draws your opponent a card. The game is much more interesting than Duelyst from a tactical point of view, partially because of that. But it’s delusional to think that Duelyst will ever get to that point, it would require an complete rework of almost any playable minion in the game and even some that aren’t played atm and this isn’t going to happen. And just adjusting the removal to Shardbound levels without changing the minions beforehand would lead to a very unfun game.