Duelyst Forums

Trials of Mythron are horrible card design

So i don’t really want to post here but i feel like this needs to be addressed and even after 3 months of this bullshit nobody else seems to do it so here i go.

The direction this game has taken with the recent expansion is bad, like really bad. There is a discussion going on about whether or not Strategos/Wanderer are too strong but that debate completely misses the point. The actual point that should be made, and the reason why they should be nerfed into oblivion is that they are a completely unfun card design. It’s kind of ironic that a company calls itself Counterplaygames and yet insists on making cards that don’t have any counterplay. Since the trials provide almost infinite value with absolutely no counterplay there is no way for a normal deck to beat a trial deck in the long game. If you want to beat them you have to do so before they can play their trial or shortly after, the longer the game drags on the smaller your chances of winning are. The downsides of this card design should be obvious but apparently they aren’t so i will list them here:

  1. These kind of cards always end up being either black or white. They are either too slow to be relevant and end up as memes like Doom or they are fast enough to come online regularly like Wanderer and Strategos in which case they usually dominate the meta.

  2. As long as they are relevant these kind of cards usually shape the meta around themselves. Since there is no counterplay to them, aside from killing the opponent before he can play them, it leaves people with basically 2 choices. Play an aggro/combo deck that is fast enough to race them or play them yourself. This is not a choice i want to make.
    Historically, midrange has always been the most common archetype in this game. We only had a select few combo and control decks through out Duelysts history that were viable and by now all of them have been nerfed into oblivion. Aggro was always been there but in most metas midrange was the most prevelant archetype. The problem we have now is that in a meta where Wanderer/Strategos are common, midrange can’t exist, or rather the only midrange decks that can exist are those two. They outclass any other midrange build to such an extent that playing something else is basically memeing around because from a competitive point of view there is no reason to play something that’s strictly inferior.

  3. It’s just plain disgusting to play against cards like this because it’s always just a race. Your literally not playing against another player, you just play against time. It makes playskill irrelevant to a good extent because no matter how much you outplay the other guy, your still destined to lose unless you can finish him off fast enough.
    If i find myself up against them with a slow starting hand i usually just concede because i know there is now way for me to win. Getting snowballed to death without a chance of doing anything is common enough in this game, but this is usually something you can disregard as luck. You can shake it off thinking: “Ok my opponent had a perfect draw/i didn’t draw the need answers. Nothing i could do about it”. But with Wanderer luck isn’t even involved anymore, it’s a certainty. You know for sure that they will be able to play the freaking 7/7 on 6 mana because it stays in hand from the beginning. The only luck related thing here is, do they also have the Flash/DFS to really fuck up your day or is just the “normal” cancer?

The prepatch Standard meta was one of the worst metas i have experienced in this game in my 25 seasons of playing, far worse than Saurian Vaath or Arcanyst Vanar. Against those decks, even if they managed to play their wincons, you still could beat them if you played well. Against Trials this isn’t possible. It’s the first meta since October Reva that made me stop playing. It’s really no suprise to me that the standard ladder was void of players with that kind of meta.

Anyone with a trace of honor probably stopped playing or escaped to unlimited where they weren’t as prevelant, leaving only the jerks and their trinity of cancer (Aggro Zirix, Strategos, Wanderer) in standard. I didn’t play all that many matches in Diamond, maybe 20 before i dropped the game, but it was literally 90% one of those 3 that i had to face. This is as far away from fun as you can get. It was probably the second fastest and also the second worst meta in Duelyst history.

With the latest patch things got a little better, Zirix is less aggressive now and i don’t see as much trial bullshit around but the problem of their sheer existance still remains and depending on how the meta shifts they might take over again.

So please CPG, just nerf that bullshit into oblivion. If you reduce all of them to memeton levels of viability people might actually have some fun playing your game again. I am pretty sure that you will never ever get enough players to support 3 queues while cards like this shape the meta, there can’t possibly be enough masochists around to support that.

Oh and as a side note, next time one of you devs feels like making a card similar to Accumulonimbus, please don’t. That card is almost as stupid as the trials. Absurd levels of burst damage that’s entirely dependend on luck. As the only factor that determines how much burst it gets, is the question how many of them you manage to draw. Even if it’s beatable, getting hit by it at 4, 5 and 7 mana is entirely unpleasant.

Please be aware that most of the people playing your game actually chose to play it above something like Hearthstone is because they like using their brains. If you keep making cards like that we might as well play Hearthstone.

19 Likes

I actually don’t agree at all. I think Trial cards bring a higher level of difficulty to deck building and play decisions, which comes along with a well deserved high reward (though this rule probably doesn’t hold true for Wanderer). I don’t find them unfun to play or play against, and I love the new mechanic as a whole.

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Good post. I agree that the design is not fair at all but imho the real problem is when the trial is too easy to complete, both in terms of deck building and in game decision.
Look at hatefurnace, it has the strongest destiny by far and still nobody plays it because the trial force your deck to be more inconsistent AND to take proactive decision during the game. On the other hand we have strategos and wanderer. Their trials are too easy to be completed because they just need proper deck building, you don’t have to take any ingame decision (with strategos you just dump your hand and refill with fealty/Trinity). That’s the real problem and I really hope they modify their trial in this direction.

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I think you’re uselessly agressive towards people who enjoy playing Trials decks. Besides, not all of Trials are abusive : they either take far too much time to setup, or force you to make a deck specifically designed to complete it, thus losing to more consistent decks.

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I’ve been saying this shit for ages now, trails bring a new power level to the game, is it good - maybe, when all the trails are on the same power level and tuned down to a managable when playing non trail decks.
The truth is - trails are stupid unfair cards man, vanar’s trail is shit so the faction can’t hold (On top of the nerfs), lyonar was always a shit faction and behold trail gave them an insane braindead powerlevel and now every noob player netdecking this and shit on the meta.
Wanderer is bullshit by itself man, this card is toxic and i don’t care what people say it should see a nerf, will it see one? I doubt it.

The state of the game is not the best but i don’t count on good nerfs and buffs same as i don’t count on good expansion for factions that need support.
Cpg got bad since the bandai namco deal and that’s a fact.
Do what i do - give a shit man, if a dude plays a toxic deck, let him, play the cards you like in the decks you like and lose in a sexy way.
I feel like if a nerf will come this decks will sink and take their riders with them.

Boy i play stun ilena, the most unsupported deck in the world, i lose from time to time to bitch decks but when i win it feels great (just went 19 dmg to face on turn 6 with sotw on snowchaser on frostfire + frostiva, the dude added me and burst into flamesXD )

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I really think Wanderer decks are losing their footing after the rerotation. Imo Shimzar allowed much more strategies, that can’t be easily countered by a 1of card deck.

For example:
Artifact- and solo based strategies
Mantrahai
Spinecleaver (they need EMP, Plasma Storm or they are dead)
Midrange
Ragnora Egg Combo ( Lava Lance, Inceptor and in some cases Morin Khur)
Battle Panddo+ DSS
Thunderhorn+ Aspect, Skorn+Luminous Charge

The only thing that really died is Control since mostly Strategos and Xor’Xuul deny any lategame for non-Mythron powered decks. If you count Fault Zirix into control we have a semi-viable archetype that can counter Wanderer but has to be really fast against Strat and Xuul.

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Lets speak of this again, when XorXull, Hideatsu and Nemeton become atleast t2 (well, XorXull might be t2, but it is not easy to make him there)

Have to agree with this. These aggro rush matches against decks with unbeatable late game get old fast.

If there is one thing they should “rotate” out, it is the Mythrons.

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Just for the record, though wasn’t the main point, in the poll (Strategos/Wanderer’s topic) I did address the fact that the whole Mythron card design may actually be the problem; was among the options to select. In my opinion only those two Mythrons are problematic, but I wouldn’t disagree on a full rework on the whole Mythron concept.

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I wonder what game have you guys been playing Duelyst has always add in cards like these just as example Duelyst add new Grandmaster and most of the Grandmaster if they survive pretty ended the game. Duelyst keep telling you it is lightning fast game and people choose to ignore it. Mythron cards are no worse design than the Grandmasters .Duelyst has clear intent for a games to end in reasonable amount of time whether it is Grandmasters like Variax, Nosh Rak and Kraigon who all pretty much end the game if they stick or Trials which put invitable clock on the game. You can find examples like Magmar (Silthar Elder,Juggernaut) Abyss( Doom,Gate) Lyonar(Excelsious,Peacekeeper) Vanar (Winter’s Wake) just name few that either an inevitable win con or answer or die card.

It is not accident there is purposeful design at work

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Grandmasta finish the game IF sticks you can remove or dispel it, you can’t dispel trail.
Playing a control lyonar deck and end it with excelsius on 9 mana (which again can got answered) is diffrent then running a stupid bad designed mythron on 6 and start ramping on steroids with no going back.
Winter’s wake is 8 mana, peacekeeper doesn’t end the game and usually will get answered.

The amount of rime is irrelevant given that control matches can hold for 20 min.and are the best matches.

Give away cards that has no answer is a problem, make the trail dispelable and see what happens

The point of duelyst is designed to be fast ,You didn’t catch that apparently. I am going to make it simple

1.Answer or die cards
2.Inevitable win cons
3.Poor Neutral Healing
4.No real defensive bbs

Duelyst is purposely designed to have a clock. They want the Mythron cards to end games quickly. It is not an accident. Mythron is just another design choice to keep the game in sweet spot 5 to 10 min games.

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saying things like ‘i hate this aggro race’ is something i dont understand. in an 1v1 game the player who wins first, wins. period. every game is a race. you can slow it down but you cant wait it out.

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Inevitable and uninteractive wincons have been in Duelyst for as long as I have been playing (Faie’s BBS, Obliterate, Songhai OTKs, Flash Decimus Double Spikes, Ripper Burst and so on), I don’t see how Trials and Destiny are any different.

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Nice to see you again!

course you can! the best decks vs finalithy vaath were attrition decks. of course, you’d be a fool to run an attrition deck with no mythrons nowadays.

in a way it is still a race. you just try to make your opponent slower than you are. you still aim to win first as winning second is whats called losing. to look at it differently you try to make him win second instead of actively trying to win first

@halcyon98 yea im just lurking from time to time, giving my 2 cents when i feel like it :wink:

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I’m personally enjoying Mythrons very much. They’re cards that encourage unique deck building, requires a decent amount of risk or setup, and has a reward powerful enough to compensate for said risk.

I agree to an extent, but that only reveals the balancing flaws of Mythrons, but not the fundamental issues of the mechanic itself. I’m actually fine with some Mythrons being stronger than others, as I personally think the meta will become oversaturated with Mythrons if all 7 of them are viable. Also, I would like to add that Strategos is currently not as strong as he used to be after the nerfs, and Wanderer definitely isn’t overpowered as well.

Doesn’t this apply for many other cards though? We kill Cass before Obliterate, we kill Zirix before Fault Ka, we kill Vaath before Finality, and we kill Shidai before Mantra. Of course we want to kill the opponent before they complete their win-con, that isn’t something exclusive to Mythrons, nor is it so problematic as you make it seem.

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well there you have it then xD if you consider attrition as a different kind of race, then you have to admit there are different kinds of races. one of them is called “aggro racing” and some people hate it. and tbh I’m one of them xD it’s like playing drag racing instead of mario karting.

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I don’t think there is something you can teach me about duelyst after almost threee years here.

I get what you’re saying but the adding of wincons needs to be paired with a way to stop it becuase if you’re not doing so we’re here with a dude playing strategos while the other trying to kill him before strategos hits the board.
This is my friend a lazy design of a card or a major flow that hits the meta like a track.

But again duelyst is in a bad place since the bandai namco deal so i don’t expect seeing any justified nerfs or buffs, enjoy your strategos.