Trial/Destiny has taken the fun/unpredictability away


#41

wanderer ox and strat are midrange decks tho, just because it is a trial doesn’t mean it isn’t midrange, also not sure how you got 7/21 to be over half, but oh well. as for eggs and decispikes, they are midrange decks that finish with a burst when you get to lategame, just like dragall’s midrange reva would finish with a spiral. swarm is played much less aggro than it used to be, with things like wriathcrown making the deck much slower. half of the decks on that list are non-trial midrange. as for what a midrange deck is that is really up for debate, but I would say that it is a deck with a flexible gamplan that will change what it is doing depending on the matchup and is neither fast nor slow.

as for “half the generals being left with nothing” (it was 6/18 btw, you really need to work on your fractions here) that is due to one of vanar being bad, or there being better in faction generals. I don’t see how it proves your point at all, given that most of the decks are midrange, even after imposing nonsensical restrictions.

I also have no idea where you are getting this idea that you need to kill by 6 mana in order to be viable, I have won many games with midrange far past that point in this meta.


#42

nobody that still plays, let alone comes to the forums cares about how unfun and damaging trials and destinies are. they are still playing after the flight of mods and casuals.


#43

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#44

I thought there was some merit to your argument until I read this part. You were complaining about Strategos because it’s a dominant late-game deck, and now you’re complaining because it’s a dominant midrange deck?

I personally think deck archetypes are decently-dispersed within Trials. The only true late-game Trials are Xor and Nemeton. Strategos, Furnace, and Wanderer are midrange, Ox is tempo because of his Trial, and NoSE is combo because of Neurolink and Dragonlark.


#45

To me trial decks are lategame decks, because their gameplan is to get their trial out in the midgame, and then win the late game from there. Personally i don’t consider Strategos a midrange deck at all. It plays like a pathetic Zoo deck in the early game and essentially can’t win without it’s lategame win con.

But with blob constantly arguing about what decks are midrange and which aren’t i simply wanted to get this part out of the way. I’ve better things to do than arguing about which decks are midrange and which aren’t for days on end.

Even if all the trials were considered midrange decks, at least Wanderer is usually considered to be, it would mean they are almost the only ones left. Both on the midrange and on the lategame end. You could say they set the benchmark for both in fact. With other midrange archetypes being unable to beat them in the long game, they are forced to be more aggressive and go for the 6-7 mana deadline or just get pushed out of the meta if they can’t do that which is exactly what i hate about trials and this meta.


#46

What’s wrong with Trials being strong? Each Trial is unique and representative of their faction, except Wanderer. They support less-played archetypes such as Swarm Brome, Zoo Kara, Dying Wish Maeve, and Artifact Sajj, and are ultimately extensions of core mechanics of their respective General.


#47

If you are really expecting me to look through the hundreds of games I play just to find the ones where I was playing your definition of a midrange deck and was also vs a trial deck where I won later in the game then I think you are slightly more invested in this than I am. as for none of those decks working, I know of players who have played those decks to a lot of sucess in this meta, so I don’t even know what you are tlaking about there either.

The reason why I argue about decks being midrange is that I see people like you spreading what is essentially lies when it comes to what is in the meta, and I’m not exactly a fan of that. I even got asked to do an interview about midrange in vetruvian where all the questions where loaded into making it seem that midrange was a super weak archetype.

as an aside I find it hilarious when you talk about playing bond during tempo lyo meta, as bond probably had the best matchup in the game into tempo.


#48

I don’t have a problem with one deck, or multiple decks being strong. I have a problem when those decks push a whole bunch of other decks out of the game with their presence or force me to play a specific archetype to win. Out of the non Trial decks that are still viable according to Blobs list the only ones that i somewhat enjoy playing are Egg Ragnora and Bond Lyonar (which doesn’t work for me) and that’s getting stale after 6 months

I don’t expect you to. I don’t expect you to be able to do so in the first place. I am certainly not a top player but i am fairly confident that if there was a way to beat trials lategame with ordinary decks i would have found it by now.

So anyone who has a different definition of midrange is spreading lies? That’s quite an arrogant statement to make about a term that never had a clear cut definition in the first place. To me it’s honestly ridiculous that you consider Strategos a midrange deck but i am at least aware of the fact that my definition isn’t the one and only.

In any case if the only argument you want to make here is about midrange definitions then i am out of here.

Well check the bagoum tier lists back for January 2017. You won’t find Bond anywhere in there, it was considered complete trash back then.

/edit just checked, you will find Bond there, but it was bottom tier.


#49

sure the meta is getting stale, that is to be expected after such a long time without changes, and would be the case regardless of what the meta is (as for bond lyo, I’d reccomend talking to rhacker93 about it if you can, he is the best bond lyo player out there and can probably help you).

you seem to have shifted from talking about midrange to talking about lategame, which is odd. The whole point of midrange is that it can shift it’s gameplan and speed depending on the situation. Against something like strategos you will probably want to be more defensive, as the best versions of that deck imo are actually fairly aggresive with warblade buffs, wheras vs xor you should be aggressive, both because they have no board and beacuse they are a latgame deck. nothing about that idea has changed, but now that people know from the outset what their opponent is playing they seem to not want to change how to play in order to beat it.

It isn’t that anyone who has a different definition is spreading lies, it is that you seem to have no idea what on earth you are even talking about, aggro has fallen of as decks have teched for it so things like the reva and cass decks I talked about don’t even see much play anymore. so saying that 90% of all decks are trial or aggro is just silly, especially when the only one of those trials that sees a lot of play is wanderer (this whole thing started when you said that changing wanderer would do nothing, which also really makes you :thonk: ).

as for bond, I rememeber it doing very well into tempo during tournaments, to the point where it was the best counter pick in the entire game.


#50

If you read my first post here you will notice that i was talking about lategame decks from the very beginning. You focused on the midrange part. To me trial decks are lategame decks because that’s where they win usually. The only one among them that i would consider a midrange build is Ox.

Regarding the rest of your post, it’s clear we won’t get anywhere so let’s just agree to disagree here.


#51

I have a problem following your argument for the same reason as the OP’s. The existence of Trials alone do not make other decks obsolete. If that happens to be the case, it’s not because they are Trials, but because they are strong. Just nerfing them would be a solution to your concerns.


#52

Yes, at least for me, nerfing them into oblivion is probably the only way of fixing this meta. And i am not just talking about Wanderer here. I mean all of them. None of them should be available before 8 mana so that other decks have some breathing room. I am aware this will probably kill all of them but i don’t see any other way. That’s the inherent design flaw with them. Once the trial is out the trial player gets a huge uncounterable advantage that other decks can’t possibly hope to overcome unless they have a simliar mechanic available, like Variax, Titan or Fault.

So there are just 2 possible scenarios here as far as i can see. The trials come online fast enough to be relevant, in this case every deck that can’t outrace them or compete with them in the late game will be pushed out. Or variant 2, they don’t come online fast enough to be viable in which case they will be pushed out themselves. There can be no middle ground here it’s either black or white.


#53

I played Drogon Vaath to S in July without too much problems. I’m not a good player and I’m even worse at Magmar. Damn, it was the first time I was dedicated to playing Magmar deck at all.

For him, the most problematic matchup of top decks is non of the Trials, but Fault instead.

I see the truth in what you’re saying, but just wanted to point out that Smash Vaath is perfectly playable.


#54

Would you mind sharing the decklist? I was thinking of trying to reach S with my Drogon deck this month myself so i’d be interested to see your approach. (actually i wanted to do it last month already but couldn’t get the motivation together).


#55

Ice Age into Wake destroys complete Trials pretty easily. There’s still some non-Trial lists out there capable of infinite value.


#56

The list is not mine, but here it is:

I played this exact list, never feeling competent enough to tinker with it.

Of unpopular choices , I find Iridium and Tracer very useful.


#57

Except that you can EMP Ice Age, and you have to wait 9 mana.

I kind of agree with @baharoth on this point, one of the most annoying things about trials is the fact that you can’t counter them when they trigger, so the games for trial players just become a rush to the trial (more or less, i just feel that with wanderer you just blindly rush to summon him 90% of time and basically can ignore what your opponent is doing, while other trial requires some more thinking).


#58

Keep in mind that Vanar is also the ramp faction; they can get out Ice Age before the opponent reaches 7 mana.

Well, it’s pretty easy to overwhelm the opponent before the Trial is complete. This is the case for Ox, Furnace, and Xor. Strategos is a little more tricky to slow down, but you can counter its Destiny by removing minions before they can swarm. NoSE and Nemeton are just weak. And yes, Wanderer is a bitch; only exception.


#59

And also the fact that many such decks run Abju.


#60

And Malicious Wisp too. Really slows your enemy down.