Duelyst Forums

Tiger costs 4. I dont get it

#1

Why was Tiger nerfed, if it had nothing to do whatsoever with cancerous metas?- I know it was infamous for its baconator and lasercat past, but that is simply no longer the case- it has not even been a relevant finisher. Even Thumping Wave has been nerfed, and this combo was probably replaced by Finality. Its Abyssian counterpart, that +5 something Reflection, is a pretty rare sight. At least for me.

In fact, I am willing to believe, until shown the opposite, that Saberspine could help suppress bad metas of the creature-setup type. Vanarcanyst and Healyonar suffered naught with Tiger’s nerf- in fact, were those sentient beings, they would be delighted- one less flexible removal, more slots the opponent will have to dedicate to things-that-are-even-less-part-of-his-win-con. If you cant find it in you to love the creatuer, just think back to aaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the games that you countered Vanarcanyst’s turn 1 with a 3 mana 3/2 rush dog. Think of that, think of how much that meta was bad, and how much Tiger helped.
Top tier decks dont need Saberspine. Its the sidekicks that do. Its the brewers who are suffering.

It may be the case that CPG wants to release madcap buffs (we know how madcap they can be because every other set we see crazy “gamebreaking” cards coming out such as Finality) that just NEED not to be used together with a cost 3 rush creature. If that is the case, then I ask, why not calm your ass and not print OP stuff, instead of almost killing an equalizer, a safety-net card? Why was it not changed to 2/2 instead? This way, the buff would entail one less damage, yet there would still be a neutral and effective way to deal with combo creatures, which mostly have 1 or 2 health.
It may also be said that our future set options will broaden with its slot now open- That better be true because nerfing tiger sure didnt make our current meta any more broad.

Drop thy thoughts and prove me wrong below
Have a nice day

#2

I don’t think it should have been nerfed either, especially since it’s a huge hit to the already unbalanced gauntlet.

But then again, I believe it was nerfed as a statement to the direction the developers want to go with the game, and to open up some design options that won’t be so heavily impacted by the existence of Tiger.

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#3

because tiger was the breaking point for so many cards in so many metas that had to be nerfed solely because tiger was so good.

kineticats
laser kitties
holy/roaring tigers
thumping cats
Phantom tigers
and much much more

without tiger, a lot of those cards probably never would have needed nerfs or reworks. they saw the limit in the design space and they opened it up so they have more to work with in the future.

5 Likes
#4

If you think Tiger was the problem in these combos, I guess you wouldnt mind seeing neo-Immolations and neo-Thumping Waves being released? Keep in mind its the latter two what players have always been salty about.

#5

I just needed some ubiquitous tiger combos as examples. Its just that whenever a strong spell comes out tiger is the first thing used to abuse it regardless of faction. With the sheer amount of OP comboes that forced nerfs due soley to abuse with tiger its no wonder.tiger was nerfed.

1 Like
#6

I think it was nerfed because it’s a neutral core card, so it won’t rotate out (unless they change their mind later). Dioltas, Skorn, and Sunsteel are rotating, if they hadn’t nerfed Tiger it probably would have rotated too.

#7

  1. Tiger makes it really really hard to make cheap buff cards from 1 to 3 mana to be in the game. As Oranos listed duelyst history is filled with broken decks that were caused by tigers or tigers made situation worse.

  2. Tiger made 1 attack early minions pointless to play in the game,Stuff like Katara,sunrise cleric,Aether master,Manaforger,etc.The early game is healthier without tiger

  3. Rush is hard to balance mechanic is better off as a faction mechanic or really expensive. If Lyonar and Vanar need a Rush minion let CPG put one in their faction then buffs and spells will be balanced around it. Neutral Tiger was overlooked in design tons of times

  4. The only valid argument for tiger being not changed is Gauntlet which is impossible to balance in current form.

#8

I don’t think the tier nerf was necessary either, but it was a design space Nerf… Because what card did they print in the same patch?

2 Likes
#9

I think the nerf was overdone. Tiger was a good low-cost answer to many threats in the game, especially for budget decks.

Best fix? Prevent it from going face, just like Lavaslasher. I really think we need a keyword for that, with Rush being only released to selected in-faction minions to keep it in check

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#10

What are you talking about? Katara and Cleric used to see plenty of play even before the nerf, Manaforger was used back in Vanarcanysts and Aether Master is simply bad. Tiger didnt stop any of these.

Cheap buffs are strong with it but when was this opressive? The hardest to deal with in our current selection was a P2T1 with it + Greater Fotitude, and was it that bad?
This buffs argument is the strongest in regards to why it should’ve been changed but this doesnt mean it has not been changed wrong- One more mana means it can only be played later which means it cannot be the effective answer it has always been which means more dumb creature combos can now dominate the board and thus less out of the meta decks can see play.
If CPG wanted to print buffs, they should’ve reduced the statline, hell, maybe even make it automatically die by the end of the turn- anything instead of killing an effective and fair 3 mana removal.

#11

My post could be any more clear. I gave 3 clear reasons for tiger being nerfed. Arguing for change is pointless because in this case any faction that “needs” 3 mana tiger they can simple now print in faction version of it. In printing a in faction version of tiger they can avoid the many many many issue decks with 3 mana tigers have cause because it easier manage one faction and its buffs than 6 factions and the multitude of interactions.

We are not arguing theortically stuff now. Kara bbs was literally nerf because of tiger,1 mana diretide, 3rd wish,Thumping wave were all abused by tiger. Phantasm and Stygian Observer would make tiger ridiculous as 3 mana play.Who cares what the card does for the early game some factions Magmar,Songhai and Vet don’t need access to more early damage and the devs have to walk on eggshells when designing cards because Tiger extends the burst damage factions can do. You keep asking was that oppressive.Yes it enable oppressive stuff and it would only be a matter of time before it happened again.

So closing.If Lyonar needs Rush minion make King of Beast 3 mana 3/2. If Vanar needs Rush minion create Snowy Tiger 3 mana 3/2 Infiltrate : Give this minion Rush.If Abyss needs a Rush minion.Spector 2 mana spell summon ghostly apparition. Ghostly apparition a 3/3 minion with rush that disappears at end of the turn. Even if they end up broken they are not in the game forever.

I don’t know how many ways to say it neutral minion that cheap with rush has been proven over and over to cause or assist in degenerate decks. To protect design space from future screws up they moved away from the 3 slot so use 2 tigers and a buff. It could only be a 1 mana buff.

#12

I should say it again now, as I did up there, the “degeneration” was never in Tiger so much as it was in the ridiculous stuff Tiger can abuse- Do you like Thumping Wave? Do you want it back at 3 mana now that Tiger is gone? Do you want Phantasm and Kara’s BBS back? Do you like Holy Immolation except when its used together with Tiger? Do you think auto triggering its death by the end of turn wouldnt solve Tiger + old Third Wish?
At this point its clear what this whole discussion is always gonna be about. The people who think that what Tiger can abuse is dumb, and the people who think Tiger itself is dumb. Which I evidently support the former because who the hell wants more ridiculous and nigh-OP cards in this game.

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#13

It isn’t matter of issuing blame on tiger or what ever enables tiger it about finding the most efficient solution to fix it.

Option 1. Is leave tiger as is. Nerf bunch of other stuff and future design has to be adjusted for possibility of tiger pushing something over the top.

Option 2. Is to change ONE card and have wide variety thing now be possible and not worry about tiger as much in design space.

It is easy choice and once again if something needs a “3 mana” tiger in the faction they can just add to that faction. For example Tiger was the perfect card in lyonar very few people had a problem with it. Holy immo/bbs Tiger was 9 mana play inline with other faction finishers.They just add a 3 mana rush minion in lyonar and they don’t to worry about magmar having access 3 rush minions instead of two in a cheesy deck.Simplest most effective solution is just remove the one card from the equation in this case 4 mana is enough to that.

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#14

I’m not sure you understood his point when you say that the degeneration was in the ridiculous stuff that tiger can abuse. Sure, in an ideal world, all buff cards would be perfectly balanced at the date of release. But his examples show that time and time again the devs have failed to balance new buff cards against tiger. If they kept tiger the same, it would probably keep happening with every new expansion. So it was sensible to nerf tiger.

Also, I do like that the tiger nerf has reduced the availability of cheap burst. Before the nerf, almost anyone could do 6-8 out of hand damage with an easy two-card combo at 6 mana or so. Now, that’s much more difficult and requires fairly involved set-up (except for decispikes, but that’s a different conversation).

2 Likes
#15

Tiger and Revenant were both nerfed because the balance team thought Stygian Observer would be used in a Tier 1 deck, especially since they’d just had to make changes to Phantasm and the deck would use most of those cards. It didn’t turn out to be the case, but you have to live with the 4 mana Tiger now. This ties in with how Abyssian is now considered the weakest of the 6 factions - the expected strong archetype didn’t come through.

One hopes that Kirabi’s point of faction-specific Tiger replacements for the ones hit most (Argeon) will come through sometime.

#16

Official statement from Core Set and Rotation Changes:

#17

people are still posting this nonsense argument, supporting the tiger nerf because of it’s out of hand damage potential with buffs? just keep ignoring the fact that tiger is still buffable and when it’s being played for lethal one extra mana cost is usually irrelevant.

#18

if you’re playing tiger after you’ve played a stygian observer what difference would it make whether the tiger costs 3 or 4? on 8 mana you can still play 2 of them.

1 Like
#19

this statement is amazingly ignorant. for one thing you’re looking at it solely from the perspective of the person who wants their 1/3 to stick, not the person who by virtue of going second has to answer the OP 1 or 2-drop. being able to use a tiger to remove a T1 katara, on the condition that the songhai player played it forward to threaten the tile, is not “healthy” but the songhai player being able to threaten infinite value with the 4 damage backstab with the 0 mana juxtaposition is “healthy” and something that should be made harder to prevent?
the point you’re REALLY missing though is that playing a tiger turn 1 to answer a 2-drop has always been a tempo loss play. player 1 can then clear the tiger with face and play a 3-drop. being in this position should not make you feel “oh no i’m losing i lost my 2-drop” it should make you feel “fk yes i’m winning my opponent skipped their turn 1 to play removal on my 2-drop”.

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#20

Your entire thought process is about Katara which is overpowered. Nothing I said was wrong the early game is healthier with ability to play 1 and 2 drops with out a tiger rushing in all the time.Faction Removal in the game is fine enough to handle the one and two drops i am mentioning. It just nice to play a manaforger, Aethermaster ,Rancour foward without it being smashed in by a tiger