Duelyst Forums

The Pigeonhole Pageant - Who has the most restrictive BBS?

#8

I’m with Akurane and d5dr4k321o0 -

Rangoon is just as capable as any of the other unit-summoning Generals, you need to have small considerations when building, but nothing that qualifies him to be one of the most restricted. He also has the advantage of tapping into the Magmar House of Luxuries :tm: , and his BBS is not actually dependent on any other factors, the other cards just make it better. At worst, with no synergy, it is a card that absorbs an attack or an effect, and can be a delayed Phoenix Fire.

Ilena is a curious problem - the BBS is effective, but severely range-limited, and is generally not strong enough against the current prevailing method of having more than one medium-sized threats. It also puts her in harm’s way - in a faction that has no real healing for itself. The same problem was partly applicable to Sajj - but the addition of Iris Barrier alongside the older cards like Ankh and Wind Striker etc have allowed her to use it effectively.

Shidai is an abomination - her BBS is a mercenary workmanlike affair. It’s just a spell and another spell, so the only thing it’s intended to be good for is decks which do not make for a good multi-player experience. Both the general and her decks can be buried for years and never made playable, and no one will lose any sleep over it.

Zir’an and Maehv are the most dependent on their deck, and even when things work out you’re not guaranteed a lasting advantage like many of the other Generals.

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#9

I’d lose sleep tbh, Shidai is a cute, lot’s of fond memories and all that.

#10

I would have to say Faie because she actually uses a pidgeon.

Stupid snow pidgeon…

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#11

I want to respond to this thread and say Kaleos since without flamewreath he just becomes inferior in every way to Reva, but this thread just feels like people defending their favorite generals/factions since you could argue that most generals are pigeonholed.

#12

what i dont get is why everyone puts zirix BBS at the top and lilithe BBS at the bottom. they are so similar as to almost be identical in function. lilithes BBS doesnt force her into any archtypes to make use of it like sajj or ziran. it isnt reliant on what your opponent does like ilena or ciphyron. and it isnt reliant on having an already established board like kaleos or argeon.

everyone just seems to be ranking based on ladder viability rather than what is actually restrictive

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#13

Aight I’m gonna make a true answer to this post. Gonna rank by least restrictive to most restrictive.

S: Faie, Vaath. These have no interaction, require no board state, and can be used in any situation. They can also be used with any deck type.

A: Zirix, Lillithe, Reva, Brome. The only restriction for these is that there is space to summon the minion. Very simple, and can also work in almost any deck type, though some better than others.

A-: Ragnora, Starhorn, Shidai, Cassyva. Close to universal but requires a small amount of planning or requirement. Good in almost any deck. Specific decks really bring out their strengths.

B: Ilena, Ciphyron, Argeon (B+), Sajj. Often requires a target of some kind to be used. Can be used in most decks, but better in a more tailored deck for them. Because he is useful in most situations as long as you have a minion, Argeon is a bit more usable.

C: Kaleos, Zir’An, Kara, Maehv: these require specific situations, or a specific type of deck to warrant their use over another general, usually a combination of the two.

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#14

Even if I agree with a lot of this, It is somewhat baffling to see Kara in the tier under the one with Argeon.

It’s a differently distributed value version of the Argeon buff without its range limitation. The two should be almost even since Kara, at worst, is like a pre-buffing +1/+1 on a friendly minion, but has a higher ceiling of power, without really doing anything other playing ‘curve-1’. What Argeon gains in tempo, Kara gains in value (occasionally in tempo too).

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#15

Thing with Kara is that she needs multiple summons to make the most out of her BBS, and it has to be done the turn the minions come out. Argeon only needs a single minion on the board to use his, though it’s better if the minion was already present or has rush. I’d say she could be C+ if anything.

Also, the fact that you said it gains power it certain situations supports the idea that this is a more restrictive BBS. You need to run specific cards or have specific situations to make the most out of it.

This is not a list that details power, only the universal application of a BBS.

#16

Wait a sec, Sajj is in B and C :thinking:
Maybe Sajj isn’t so restrictive after all :laughing:.

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#17

(If the minion has Rush, aka Tiger, Kara’s buff is probably even better a lot of the time since a 4/3 Tiger will probably live over a 5/2 one ignoring any other supporting cards :stuck_out_tongue: )

IF Kara has multiple minions, then the value of the BBS is arguably better than Argeon’s and she can use it globally, and Vanar provides a lot more in the way of multi-minion summons than Lyonar has access to (not that Argeon can buf multiple minions for his 1 mana), so Kara wins that too.

The only time Kara’s BBS falls behind is purely in tempo generating trades, where the immediate effect on existing minions is valued. In terms of universal application of a bbs given the kit of their faction, I’d say Vanar provides just as much as Lyonar does to Argeon, if not more, to Kara and her BBS.

#18

BBS goes into 3 categories
(1 = least restrictive)

1: summoning bodies

1-reva
2-zirix
2-lilithe
3-brome
4-ragnora
5-maehv

reva is top because she actually gets to choose where her BBS goes as well as being able to create backline value generators. this lets her play just about anything.

zirix and lilithe are one step lower with simple “summon 2/2 worth of stats on a random spot near your general”. and like reva can be played with just about anything.

brome has positioning requirements that restricts gameplay if not deckbuilding. brome can play just about anything, but can be countered by his own minions or the enemy.

ragnoras summon is a frail 0/1 egg that has to be protected or comboed immediately forcing him into using egg synergy to get any use out of it.

maehv takes damage from her BBS AND it requires killing friendly minions on the field, forcing her to run plenty of healing and minions that want to die.

2: effecting bodies

1-faie
1-vaath
2-cassyva
3-ciphyron
4-kara
5-kaleos
5-argeon
6-ilena
7-ziran
8-sajj
9-maehv

faie and vaath can use their BBS regardless of basically anything. they have the best BBS in the game and can play literally any deck without restriction.

cassyva and ciphyron for the most part dont care what their decklist is so long as their opponents use minions though the synergy with cards like punish and psychic conduit can be too good to pass up. cassyva doesnt even need an enemy minion to use her BBS as her own minions (who might want to die) can serve perfectly as a target on their own.

kara simply buffs minions played that turn and only needs to have minions in her deck. though it slightly restricts the higher cost cards as finding the mana to play them AND BBS can be difficult while simultaneously pushing her towards flood tactics with walls and arcanysts.

kaleos and argeon simply need friendly minions on the board. argeon has positioning requirements while kaleos has power requirements. both can play with just about any archtype that uses minions, though sometimes synergies can be too powerful to pass up like flamewreath or azurite lion

ilena while like ciphyron or cassyva only requires an enemy, the fact that its only stunned for a turn forces her to have cards that take advantage of stunned minions, which forces her to use more stunning cards, effectively auto-filling a quarter of her deck before getting into an archtype

ziran has the unfortunate requirement of having a minion AND it being damaged. this forces her to run minions with high health totals effectively keeping her out of any swarm archetype

sajj’s BBS has the unfortunate requirement that she punch minions and this forces her to use shielding, healing, and artifacts with very little room for variety

finally maehv, the only one to make it to the bottom of 2 lists as she has to destroy a friendly minion and sacrifice 2 health to summon a 4/4 restricting her decks to healing and things that want to die

3: effecting action bar

1- old kara
1- shidai
2- starhorn

shidai gets free cards that work well with any songhai deck, but since they cost extra mana and the fact reva is just so good, shidai is relegated to the spell synergy and artifacts.

starhorn gets a card from the deck but so does the opponent and is therefore forced to use cards that take advantage of this by either using an aggressive deck that dumps hand easily or by punishing the opponent for drawing cards

this is a pageant people

we shouldnt be comparing the swim suit portion with the cooking portion

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#19

This is not a viability list, this is ain’t that describes the universal application of a BBS.

Kara requires specific cards or situations to gain power, Argeon’s power is fairly standard and can be used on any single friendly target.

@humancalc: whoops lol. She’s Supposed to be at B. Her BBS can be used whenever she would be attacking an enemy minion. Though much more viable in a deck tailored to it. Though she is at the low end of B for sure.

#20

Universally, Kara needs to be able to summon a minion to use her BBS. Argeon needs to do exactly the same.

Argeon requires that minion to live past a turn to use his BBS more effectively than Kara.

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#21

Good point. But Kara has to use it in the turn the minion is summoned, and has a power level that changes heavily on circumstance. Thus why I believe she is lower.

#22

Maehv is pidgeonholed because her bbs requires you to pack a lot of healing and she doesn’t have great removal tools, forcing the use of dispel/lure/Gnasher in every deck. Despite this, the recent buff made her powerful enough that you can get away with less of her staples.

Kara, Ilena, Cyphiron, Sajj, Ziran, Starhorn and Shidai are all ‘pidgeonholed’ in that you build decks around their bbs DESPITE it being universally useful (you don’t need a healing deck for healing to be useful, don’t need Decimus for drawing cards to be useful etc). This is because alternative generals (Reva, Vaath and Faie in particular) do everything better when it comes to a ‘regular’ deck, which means these generals are only used for specific purposes, making them ‘pidgeonholed’ (draw burn, healynar, Kara swarm, mantra etc).

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#23

Guys, can we include cards that can permanently ‘modifying’ General’s BBS into equations?

#24

No, because you have to play specific deck for those mods (Variax w/ DFC and Geomancer w/ Burn)

#25

Fun Fact: If you have a group of 19 Duelyers (If that’s the correct word), you’re guaranteed that at least 2 of them share a BBS.

(I’m sorry, I just had to put the pigeonhole theorem into this thread)

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#26

1- the correct term is "steve"
2- you are only guarenteed that if they dont change it via geomancer or variax

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#27

Fixed it for ya