Duelyst Forums

The Pigeonhole Pageant - Who has the most restrictive BBS?

#1

I’m interested in finding out what all you guys think about a particular subject, namely, which Generals’ Bloodborn Spell pigeonholes them the most.

In other words, which General’s use and deckbuilding is restricted the most by their BBS?

In my opinion, I believe it to be Maehv and Shidai.

Maehv is based around self-harm, giving her the ability to sacrifice health and her own minions in return for Husks. She just might be my favourite General, but her BBS limits much of her deckbuilding, as you will always need to sub in plenty of healing options, as Duelyst is a game where 1 or 2 points lower health here and there can be extremely punishing.

On the one hand, Maehv can easily activate Dying Wish abilities, making her a strong contender with Lurking Fear decks, but once again the healing has to be subbed in to counteract the health loss caused by her BBS.

Secondly, Shidai Stormblossom. The inherent RNG of her Spellswords ensures very little reliability with her BBS. So often when a Kotetsu(Backstab) spell would be a game changer you get a Tanahashi(Teleport) or a Kiyomori(+1 Movement) that does nothing for you. Really the only decks she is strong in are ones based on spell procs, which are further limited to pretty much just Arcanyst and Mantra decks. Besides those BBA expansion cards the only cards that she really synergises with are 4 Winds, Chakri Avatar and Suzemubachi(bleh).

So what do you guys think? Tell me which General you feel is most heavily pigeonholed by their BBS.

P.S. Please note this is not a thread calling for changes to BBS’. I think they are quite well-balanced for now, though if you feel you have a good suggestion to change them and make them less restrictive feel free to put the idea forward so we can all discuss it.

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#2

I’d rank them like this (from least pigeonholed to most), corrected for the other Generals in their Faction:

  • Faie
  • Zirix
  • Vaath
  • Reva
  • Cassyva
  • Argeon
  • Brome
  • Ciphyron
  • Starhorn
  • Ilena
  • Shidai
  • Lilithe
  • Kaleos
  • Sajj
  • Kara
  • Zir’An
  • Maehv
  • Ragnora

A lot of these could probably be tied but that’s my feeling at the moment. I agree that Shidai needs a deck that revolves around spell triggers but there are three actual decks that allow for that (this will likely get worse over time though) and while Maehv is pretty restricted, I don’t expect people to run Ragnora for anything other than an Egg deck specifically (because they’d run Vaath otherwise).

#3

hmmmm, I would go with Ilena and Zir’an. Ok, I know it doesn’t make much sense but let me explain myself. Ok so Ilena is probably the most gimmicky of all the general IMO, since her BBS is “stun a nearby enemy minion”

  1. This doesn’t apply to generals, so it is that much weaker
  2. the minion has to be near her (dangerous af)
  3. You’ll have to have one turn to kill the mf or else you’re gonna get swarmed to valhalla

This limits the deck choices to a few: Stun vanar, and Vespyr Vanar. Both of which are weak right now.

Next, Zir’an. Her BBS is “restore 3 health to a minion” Zir’an can be pretty ok is some tempo decks, but let’s be honest here, minions don’t tend to stick in the current meta. Don’t expect that Ironcliffe Guardian to stay on the board more than 2 turns. Such are the limitations of her BBS.

  1. as with Ilena’s BBS, only limited to minions, and is completely useless when you have no minions on the board.
  2. The only difference, as I said, is that her BBS is useless without minions on the board
  3. The one use is in trading, and normally the use it has is synergy with heal proc minions or spells

Thus, this limits Zir’an’s possible deck choices to two: Healyonar, and Tempo Lyonar, the second being probably one of the weakest decks in the meta with cards like HOMEOSTATIC REBUKE and PLASMA STORM having many similarities to rap music nowadays, both being popular yet harmful to the community (banter pls dont kill me)

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#4

While I do feel Ilena lacks decent support, I think her BBS is still good. Just lacking consistent tools like Iceshatter Gauntlet to synergise with it.

Zir’an is a good point though. I feel like her BBS is just really good, but as you say, minions tend not to stick in Duelyst. Not only on this meta, but pretty much every meta I’ve seen in my short time playing has shown that anything that needs a board presence to be consistently maintained for 2 turns or more is fighting an uphill battle.

@thematsjo I suppose Ragnora is in a similar spot as Kara, in that most of the time Faie/Vaath is just a better all-round option. Ragnora can be strong without leaning too heavily into egg synergy though, and is more flexible than people give him credit for. Unfortunately besides Eggmar he doesn’t have much room to shine.

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#5

I heavily disagree with your assessment of Ragnora. I would argue that because he generates a body (a ripper egg), he opens up a lot of playstyle for Magmar, similar to Zirix in Vetruvian from my perspective.

While Ragnora has done a lot to push Eggmar, his eggs also have nice synergy with grow effects due to A.) The rippers gaining the buff after they hatch and b.) Celerity. With a primal flourish tile on board, you can (more likely in the late game) continue to generate 5/3 rebirth units with celebrity.

On a similar note, Ragnora is probably the best reliquarian general for Magmar due to his aforementioned synergy with buffs and grow effects, and in combination with flash and mandrake you could pull off some nasty combos.

Lastly, I have had a lot of success running a more midrange/combo orientated Ragnora using Quillrage, as you not only get another body for pings, but rippers are great targets for Blood rage. Furthermore, Ripper eggs work well in conjunction with twin fang, as you area able to place your eggs a bit more aggressively while forcing your opponent to deal with either your artifact or the egg. With how catalyst quillbeast works, you can also safely place an egg without it dying from it.

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#6

to be honest, Ragnora is the one general that put magmar in such a good place. Yes, his decks are mainly eggmar based, but let’s be honest, eggmar has one of the best combos out there with BBS-> flash wild interceptor->greater fortitude, and as my boi @akurane said, QUILLRAGE IS ONE OF THE MOST UNDERRATED DECKS. I’ve tried it out myself and I tell you I’m in love with it

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#7

Not a big fan of making a ranking here, but i think we can put them in Groups.

Faie, Vaath, Argeon, Reva, Zirix, Cyphyron and Brome are Generals that can be used in pretty much any deck without giving it much thought.

Cassyva, Ragnora, Sajj and Ilena are Generals that highly encourage certain cards (Punish, Fortitude, Ankh/Barrier and Gauntlet) but are pretty flexible outside of that.

Starhorn, Shidai, Lilith, Kaleos, Kara, Zir’an and Maehv are limited to some very specific decktypes and therefor are the most limited.

Out of those i’d consider Ziran the most limited. Her BBS simply isn’t worth using without healsynergy and even in decks with Healsynergy she isn’t that much better. The other Generals at least have a number of different archetypes/card combinations to build around by Zir’an is pretty much a one trick pony.

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#8

I’m with Akurane and d5dr4k321o0 -

Rangoon is just as capable as any of the other unit-summoning Generals, you need to have small considerations when building, but nothing that qualifies him to be one of the most restricted. He also has the advantage of tapping into the Magmar House of Luxuries :tm: , and his BBS is not actually dependent on any other factors, the other cards just make it better. At worst, with no synergy, it is a card that absorbs an attack or an effect, and can be a delayed Phoenix Fire.

Ilena is a curious problem - the BBS is effective, but severely range-limited, and is generally not strong enough against the current prevailing method of having more than one medium-sized threats. It also puts her in harm’s way - in a faction that has no real healing for itself. The same problem was partly applicable to Sajj - but the addition of Iris Barrier alongside the older cards like Ankh and Wind Striker etc have allowed her to use it effectively.

Shidai is an abomination - her BBS is a mercenary workmanlike affair. It’s just a spell and another spell, so the only thing it’s intended to be good for is decks which do not make for a good multi-player experience. Both the general and her decks can be buried for years and never made playable, and no one will lose any sleep over it.

Zir’an and Maehv are the most dependent on their deck, and even when things work out you’re not guaranteed a lasting advantage like many of the other Generals.

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#9

I’d lose sleep tbh, Shidai is a cute, lot’s of fond memories and all that.

#10

I would have to say Faie because she actually uses a pidgeon.

Stupid snow pidgeon…

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#11

I want to respond to this thread and say Kaleos since without flamewreath he just becomes inferior in every way to Reva, but this thread just feels like people defending their favorite generals/factions since you could argue that most generals are pigeonholed.

#12

what i dont get is why everyone puts zirix BBS at the top and lilithe BBS at the bottom. they are so similar as to almost be identical in function. lilithes BBS doesnt force her into any archtypes to make use of it like sajj or ziran. it isnt reliant on what your opponent does like ilena or ciphyron. and it isnt reliant on having an already established board like kaleos or argeon.

everyone just seems to be ranking based on ladder viability rather than what is actually restrictive

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#13

Aight I’m gonna make a true answer to this post. Gonna rank by least restrictive to most restrictive.

S: Faie, Vaath. These have no interaction, require no board state, and can be used in any situation. They can also be used with any deck type.

A: Zirix, Lillithe, Reva, Brome. The only restriction for these is that there is space to summon the minion. Very simple, and can also work in almost any deck type, though some better than others.

A-: Ragnora, Starhorn, Shidai, Cassyva. Close to universal but requires a small amount of planning or requirement. Good in almost any deck. Specific decks really bring out their strengths.

B: Ilena, Ciphyron, Argeon (B+), Sajj. Often requires a target of some kind to be used. Can be used in most decks, but better in a more tailored deck for them. Because he is useful in most situations as long as you have a minion, Argeon is a bit more usable.

C: Kaleos, Zir’An, Kara, Maehv: these require specific situations, or a specific type of deck to warrant their use over another general, usually a combination of the two.

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#14

Even if I agree with a lot of this, It is somewhat baffling to see Kara in the tier under the one with Argeon.

It’s a differently distributed value version of the Argeon buff without its range limitation. The two should be almost even since Kara, at worst, is like a pre-buffing +1/+1 on a friendly minion, but has a higher ceiling of power, without really doing anything other playing ‘curve-1’. What Argeon gains in tempo, Kara gains in value (occasionally in tempo too).

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#15

Thing with Kara is that she needs multiple summons to make the most out of her BBS, and it has to be done the turn the minions come out. Argeon only needs a single minion on the board to use his, though it’s better if the minion was already present or has rush. I’d say she could be C+ if anything.

Also, the fact that you said it gains power it certain situations supports the idea that this is a more restrictive BBS. You need to run specific cards or have specific situations to make the most out of it.

This is not a list that details power, only the universal application of a BBS.

#16

Wait a sec, Sajj is in B and C :thinking:
Maybe Sajj isn’t so restrictive after all :laughing:.

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#17

(If the minion has Rush, aka Tiger, Kara’s buff is probably even better a lot of the time since a 4/3 Tiger will probably live over a 5/2 one ignoring any other supporting cards :stuck_out_tongue: )

IF Kara has multiple minions, then the value of the BBS is arguably better than Argeon’s and she can use it globally, and Vanar provides a lot more in the way of multi-minion summons than Lyonar has access to (not that Argeon can buf multiple minions for his 1 mana), so Kara wins that too.

The only time Kara’s BBS falls behind is purely in tempo generating trades, where the immediate effect on existing minions is valued. In terms of universal application of a bbs given the kit of their faction, I’d say Vanar provides just as much as Lyonar does to Argeon, if not more, to Kara and her BBS.

#18

BBS goes into 3 categories
(1 = least restrictive)

1: summoning bodies

1-reva
2-zirix
2-lilithe
3-brome
4-ragnora
5-maehv

reva is top because she actually gets to choose where her BBS goes as well as being able to create backline value generators. this lets her play just about anything.

zirix and lilithe are one step lower with simple “summon 2/2 worth of stats on a random spot near your general”. and like reva can be played with just about anything.

brome has positioning requirements that restricts gameplay if not deckbuilding. brome can play just about anything, but can be countered by his own minions or the enemy.

ragnoras summon is a frail 0/1 egg that has to be protected or comboed immediately forcing him into using egg synergy to get any use out of it.

maehv takes damage from her BBS AND it requires killing friendly minions on the field, forcing her to run plenty of healing and minions that want to die.

2: effecting bodies

1-faie
1-vaath
2-cassyva
3-ciphyron
4-kara
5-kaleos
5-argeon
6-ilena
7-ziran
8-sajj
9-maehv

faie and vaath can use their BBS regardless of basically anything. they have the best BBS in the game and can play literally any deck without restriction.

cassyva and ciphyron for the most part dont care what their decklist is so long as their opponents use minions though the synergy with cards like punish and psychic conduit can be too good to pass up. cassyva doesnt even need an enemy minion to use her BBS as her own minions (who might want to die) can serve perfectly as a target on their own.

kara simply buffs minions played that turn and only needs to have minions in her deck. though it slightly restricts the higher cost cards as finding the mana to play them AND BBS can be difficult while simultaneously pushing her towards flood tactics with walls and arcanysts.

kaleos and argeon simply need friendly minions on the board. argeon has positioning requirements while kaleos has power requirements. both can play with just about any archtype that uses minions, though sometimes synergies can be too powerful to pass up like flamewreath or azurite lion

ilena while like ciphyron or cassyva only requires an enemy, the fact that its only stunned for a turn forces her to have cards that take advantage of stunned minions, which forces her to use more stunning cards, effectively auto-filling a quarter of her deck before getting into an archtype

ziran has the unfortunate requirement of having a minion AND it being damaged. this forces her to run minions with high health totals effectively keeping her out of any swarm archetype

sajj’s BBS has the unfortunate requirement that she punch minions and this forces her to use shielding, healing, and artifacts with very little room for variety

finally maehv, the only one to make it to the bottom of 2 lists as she has to destroy a friendly minion and sacrifice 2 health to summon a 4/4 restricting her decks to healing and things that want to die

3: effecting action bar

1- old kara
1- shidai
2- starhorn

shidai gets free cards that work well with any songhai deck, but since they cost extra mana and the fact reva is just so good, shidai is relegated to the spell synergy and artifacts.

starhorn gets a card from the deck but so does the opponent and is therefore forced to use cards that take advantage of this by either using an aggressive deck that dumps hand easily or by punishing the opponent for drawing cards

this is a pageant people

we shouldnt be comparing the swim suit portion with the cooking portion

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#19

This is not a viability list, this is ain’t that describes the universal application of a BBS.

Kara requires specific cards or situations to gain power, Argeon’s power is fairly standard and can be used on any single friendly target.

@humancalc: whoops lol. She’s Supposed to be at B. Her BBS can be used whenever she would be attacking an enemy minion. Though much more viable in a deck tailored to it. Though she is at the low end of B for sure.

#20

Universally, Kara needs to be able to summon a minion to use her BBS. Argeon needs to do exactly the same.

Argeon requires that minion to live past a turn to use his BBS more effectively than Kara.

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