The Nerfs and Buffs I would make to Duelyst


#21

EMP: I personally hate this card, but I would rather see it get a star reduction than a mana boost, so that it could serve as a decent tech card. Plus, it’s probably the only playable and reactive lategame threat. 7 mana, 7/7 or 6/6 is enough for me.

Thunderhorn: pretty fair nerf that most people would agree on. Personally, I would make it a faction card in any faction but Vet and Vanar.

Lost in the desert: fair nerf, but I would rather rework its effect to be more punishing to minions and less so to generals. Maybe: 4 mana, “Transform enemy minions not nearby enemies into friendly dervishes”

Blood of Air/ Siphon energy: right now, Vet has a lot of good but expensive removal. It all comes down to personal vision of Vet’s faction identity, but I kinda like to have a faction who relies on expensive removal.

Mind Cage Oni: Personally, I have no problem with this dude, but other people might. It could be cool to give it a star boost and make the effect symmetrical.

Tusk Boar: potatoe potahto, I can’t really judge this one. Cards with recursive effects (looking at you desolator) are noutoriously difficult to judge.

Zendo: As much as I like the card, I have to agree that GMZ is a bit on the strong side. Keep in mind, however, that it is the only proactive Songhai lategame minion, so getting rid of it would hurt Tempo Songhai more than degenerative builds.

Variax: This seems like an excellent change. A good sidegrade that gives more counterplay to ramping her out. However, having so many cards that are demolished by lightbender feels pretty bad. Also, the wording sounds awkward.

Cacophonous: this upgrade seems quite strong. I’m pretty sure that Lilith and Cassyva would be running a strongly stated 4 drop that is all but guaranteed to trade 2 for 1. Personally I would change it to:

4 mana
6/3
Dying wish: Destroy a random nearby enemy minion. Restore health to your general equal to its attack.

Desolator: I’m not sure what to do with this. It’s one of the only things propping up Abyssian right now and without cheap rush, Aggro Abyss is not likely to abuse it. Personally, I would wait until next expansion to consider changing this.

Plasma Storm: Plasma Storm is a fine way to keep swarm and Aggro in check. The only change I would make to it is to spare 0 attack minions so that structures are spared.

Silithars: Yes. Magmar Golems can burn in Makantor hell; Silithars are where it’s at! I’d go so far as to change Elder to 8/8 and veteran to 4/5.

Fenrir Warmaster / Matron Elveti:
Good changes, but I would like to take this opportunity to give infiltrate some support:

Fenrir Warmaster
3 mana
3/4
Infiltrate: Dying Wish: Summon a 3/4 ghost Wolve nearby.

Maybe this is too overpowered, but it sure as heck would make people want to play around infiltrate

Matron Elveti:
7 mana
7/7
Friendly characters not called Matron Elveti gain “Intiltrate: cannot be attacked my minions”

A lategame defensive bomb like EMP, but reliant on positioning.


#22

I hope you remeber Denadoro is now a thing


#23

While I get your point these Songhai cards are proven non issues.I haven’t played against Mantra deck all last season.

I honestly don’t know what level you played at last season, and my comments come from someone in the silver/gold ranks but Mantra decks were all over that last month…

If you nerf EMP and Deso then any form of creep is dead - irrespective of what comes in the next expac to replace what should be moved to core (Oblit and Sphere)


#24

Agree with vast majority of this from my (very limited) perspective. I would nerf Shidai back to the stone age personally but I appreciate it’s not a universal view :expressionless:

I would love to be able to play Siliathar’s in the Ragnora deck so making them stronger is good - and like you I think it’s fits more with lore/common sense


#25

Cool to see someone digs my silithar elder change. It always annoyed me that an elder produces new eggs that hatch into new elders. New elder. That’s a contradiction.

And the veterans should be at least 4/4. Maybe 4/5 or 5/4.

As for Firestorm Shidai and Artifact Reva, they need serious changes. Even if you win, they’re not fun to play against, and they’re not playing Duelyst right. I don’t mind the idea behind firestorm mantra, but it needs to be reworked so that it doesn’t encourage building decks that have basically no minions in them. And Artireva needs to not be able to kite.


#26

Last month is the least I have played on ladder (but I made diamond ) I just never came across Mantra deck last month that i can recall.The overall point it isn’t running crazy over ladder 3 or 4 months ago it was all over the ladder and even then it wasn’t that bad

As for Abyss. Creep is already dead and Desolator is crutch people are clinging on too in Abyss(just like Mankantor in Magmar).Regardless of the state of faction overturned cards should be nerfed.You just have to buff cards as well which i did a little in this topic for every nerf there was at least a small buff. Now if i was dev i could play around with thing adjust more stuff but just for this topic i kept it small , small tweaks and small buffs trying not redesign the cards.


#27

Duelyst is CARD game and board game. Some Cards and Decks exists to bring a different variety of play style to keep the game from being boring. Don’t try to pigeon hole duelyst into something it is not that where some players go wrong. Mantrahai and Spellhai is playing Duelyst the right way, Doom Cass is playing Duelyst the right way. These decks are card game strategy decks which duelyst is very much card game with spells and non board interactive tactics. Duelyst just needs to flesh out proper counters like any other card game.

For example Hearthstone has a neutral card 5 mana 5/5 minion call Lotheab (duelyst has kinda version in Keshrai fanblade) Lotheab made spell cost 3 mana more the next turn. HS has a neutral card called Skulking Geist which is a 6 mana 4/6 that destroys all 1 mana cards in decks and person hand. People seem to forget that Duelyst is a fairly young game and still needs wider variety cards to flesh out counter strategies. Nothing is wrong with Artifact Reva or Firestorm Mantra Shidai we just need better tools for those type of strategies just like we need better tools against combo decks or even Titan. Titan is a strong card we have nothing in the game to interact with that strategy in last expansion HS they made card called Darkness which is 4 mana 20/20 that puts 3 candle spells in your opponent deck and when your opponent draws all three darkness actives. A card like that would be helpful against a deck like Titan in duelyst. Ask for better tools


#28

5 mana
15charac


#29

Rejected. Artifact and Mantra Songhai are obnoxious and unfun. Whether the other person playing them wins or loses, they’re not having fun, at least not the people I talk to. Duelyst is at its best when the board is being utilized by both sides and minions and generals are interacting.

Kiting around with ranged and celerity is not that. Either she’s going to get cornered and stomped on, or she’s going to get EMP’ed and not be able to come back, or she’s going to succeed at playing the kiting game and win by spamming ranged attacks.

Stalling with removal while you wait to build the perfect hand to oneshot the enemy general isn’t Duelyst at its best either. Either she gets her firestorm off or not. Exciting.

I recognize that all this is my opinion, as your statement is yours, but the more players go running around basically not playing minions, the less fun Duelyst is going to be. And kiting is cancer. I cannot and will not support any deck that wants to skip the stuff that makes Duelyst fun.


#30

People have said this stuff about every type of deck in game.Aggro,Control,Combo and Midrange. Losing isn’t fun for me ,I have yet to run into this mythical deck that fun to lose against. The Fun excuse is bs either you can counter the deck or not. Decks that make people have to vastly change their decks to counter are hated often called not fun.Saurian is the biggest example of this Saurian was very beatable deck but fundamentally change how top deck looked and people hated it and often the statement was said " i switch to blank deck to beat Saurian but i don’t want too".

I will say it again and it is a FACT not opinion Duelyst is a board tactics game and CARD game. Card tactics should exists in a card game.If they weren’t meant to exist they wouldn’t be in the game.Duelyst could have easily not added in spells into the game a made the game unit focused game.


#31

No, losing isn’t fun. But with Artihai and Mantrahai, winning isn’t fun either. Nothing about the match is fun. And when a game isn’t being fun (or engaging in some other way) it isn’t doing its job. Artihai and Mantrahai aren’t even top-tier decks right now, if I understand correctly. They’re just not fun to play against. I wouldn’t even have fun playing as them.

It is a FACT not opinion Duelyst is a BOARD tactics game and card game. Board tactics should exist in a board game. Any deck that says “My half of the game is going to be as boardless as possible,” makes every game it’s involved in less fun for the other guy. And that’s bad for the game.

Duelyst is a board-centric game, and is at its best when it involves the board a lot. Every board-focused minion-heavy deck is also playing a card game, don’t forget. The cards are always involved. I don’t want any deck that tries to minimize interaction with the board and just worry about the cards. This isn’t Hearthstone or Magic. It has a board. Use it.

Also, creatureless decks in Hearthstone sound boring as crap. And creatureless decks in Magic are boring as crap, and that’s from personal experience. Yeah, Azorius control, what a fun deck to play against. I shudder at the memory.

Oh, and it is possible to lose a match and still have fun. Close matches are a cool thing, even when you don’t win, even when you rage out at the end when they pull off that last-minute win, they’re still exciting and engaging. I’d have every match I play be close if I had control over such a thing.

And seriously, seriously, kiting is the worst kind of terminal cancer. Kiting is the freaking black plague.


#32

Don’t forget Magic and other cardgames that exist longer also have waaay more ways to interact besides creatures. There is much more tech going on, that can prevent unfun playstyles from getting through. This kind of push and pull besides the board makes those card games still interesting.
I wish we had more cards in duelyst that would fit in the “death and taxes” playstyle from Magic. Lots of prohibitive creatures that limit non- minion interactions. Fanblade, Spellbinder and Magesworn could have more smaller cousins in my opinion.


#33

I hate to tell you this but different people find different things fun and they are people who like to win games through fatigue or milling cards from person deck.Just because you keep on saying doesn’t make it true of it not being fun.

The game has design spaces dedicated spells and stuff that doesn’t interact with the board.The devs are using that space the only issue that arise they aren’t enough stuff that counter spells and interact with spells. I am done because you stuck in your opinion of what duelyst should be instead of what actual is and i am stress it again that duelyst is as much a traditional card game as it is tactics game with board many styles should exist in duelyst. Duelyst is amazing because it is multiple things The fact that minionless deck exists and spell less deck exist is cool.The fun in duelyst is figuring out how to beat these decks. As Magmar main I hate Spellhai, Mantrahai and Artfacthai my faction isn’t really geared to to counter those deck but as a Duelyst players who plays more than just one faction I have found builds that just work over those songhai builds.


#34

Artifact Songhai has been a archetype since the games beta stages. To argue that it’s somehow “anti duelyst” is simply history revisionism.


#35

I wouldn’t go so far as to say artifact and spell Songhai are anti-duelyst, but they’re anti what I want from duelyst so I’m happy when Songhai is bad.


#36

Artifact Songhai with old mask of shadows (had +2 attack on top of 4 backstab) was really fun and definitely a board based deck. In fact, it might be the deck that rewards skilled play the most, as in, a skilled enough player (aka, TheScientist) can get a >90% win rate with it. Whether or not that’s a good thing is up for debate.

Nonetheless, the “Chase me if you dare” bluff that artifact Songhai can do was definitely a feature that Counterplay tried to integrate into this faction.

(Maybe I’m just blinded by nostalgia goggles, since that was around when I joined the game)


#37

There is nothing to say against backstab focused artifact Hai. The problem is when Ranged, Celerity and Crescent Spear assemble too much damage to get through. There is no “if you dare” but “if you can” which transforms the game into the RNG search for answer cards.


#38

You are talking about Scihai which is different from the one man army artifact Songhai which i think deck being talk about as the one here from the beginning.

He was talking about Mask of Shadows(which gave plus one attack)/Cyclone Mask which is only 2 cards which created the dilemma of chasing the Songhai get close enough hit him but also meant you were in range to be backstab for 16 damage or stay at range die in salvo of Phoenix fires, cyclone attacks and 7 mana Spiral techniques( 6 mana with mana vortex which use to draw card as well).

What you are talking about is Bangle,Cyclone mask and crescent spear( 3 cards) which while annoying exists in metagame with 1 mana Blood tear alchemist, EMP, sphere of darkness,Skorn, Desolator, tectonic spikes/Decimus. Also has the exotic artifact removal options like Droplift and Mattershaper. You guys aren’t talking about the same thing and they aren’t comparable bangle artifact hai exists only because like old Mechazor countering it makes you lose bunch more stuff. It is not a deck can exist with stuff focus on beating it. The deck literally only gets popular when Magmar becomes common because Vaath/Magmar struggles with Range and Artifact removal. Everyone else Faie, Cass, Vet with Rasha Curse,Other forms of Songhai with bloodrage or 4 winds,Starhorn with Deci Spikes have no problems removing artifacts. “IF YOU CAN” is yes to bunch of generals. Heck I don’t think old Mask of Shadows Songhai would be as strong in today duelyst because the amount of pings and artifact removal has gone up by alot.


#39

I don’t know about Duelyst’s distant history, but artifact Songhai in the form it takes now didn’t exist before bangle of blinding strike hit.


#40

About my opinion of these decks, I’m not the only one who holds it. There are a lot of people who hate both of these decks and want to see them burn. Yes, it’s just an opinion…but so is the opinion that they’re fine for the game and there’s nothing wrong with them. Let’s explore my thoughts in greater detail.

Duelyst is both a board game and a card game. It should have neither decks that scorn the board, nor decks that scorn cards. Getting away from cards is impossible, obviously, so that’s one down. Now all that’s left is decks that try to get away from the board. Just because the game currently supports a couple of them doesn’t mean they’re a good thing. These decks aren’t interested in playing Duelyst, and they’re not interested in playing with the other player. They’re about as uninteractive as decks get, and there’s nothing good about that.

Players shouldn’t be playing solitaire. Not in Duelyst, not in Magic, not in any card game of this nature, ever. Solitaire decks are against the spirit of all competitive deckbuilding card games. Your deck should be required to actually have your cards and the other person’s cards do stuff together, rather than your deck either going off and vaporizing them, or fizzling, or them rushing you down too fast, or them having specific counters against you. None of those four possibilities are a fun or engaging game, so the better solitaire decks are, the more unfun and unengaging matches there will be, and that will frustrate and alienate players like me who hate these kinds of decks. Seriously, even watching someone play a solitaire deck isn’t fun.