Duelyst Forums

The first turn conundrum (longest single post in the history of these forums?)

Hey guys loli here, gonna make an actual serious post that is not a meme creme dream. In my mythron wanderings through many a tcg and ccg, I have always felt and always known the presence of the “turn one balance” problem. This is where player one always has a significant advantage by being able to develop first, and having access to the next mana crystal first.

All ccgs adress this problem uniquely, and it is always fun for me to see what solution a new card game has came up with. Because each tcg or ccg has unique mechanics, the one that balances the first turn problem has to be unique as well.

Shadowverse, for example, has a unique “evolve” system that provide both players with limited amounts of points to use on their minions for free (starting after a few turns, once a turn) to upgrade their stats, and even give thm new abilities!

Mtg gives a draw to the second player on their first turn while not giving one to player one. HS uses a one use spell to give one free mana to the second player.

Duelyst, however has one of the most unique systems of balance Ive seen in awhile. First, their mana systems start at two, or three for the second player. Observing just this, that just took the main advantage of player one and handed it to player two! Although p1 does have more flexibility in t1 developments because the mana base starts at two, they still just lost their biggest advantage of being able to start with one more mana than the opponent had last turn!

Also, mana tiles muddy the water. With the positioning of mana tiles giving p2 instant access to a one mana discount on his next minion, and also taunting possibility of accessing another of the three mana tiles for further value, it is quite obvious compared to the turn 2 ramp that p1 may achieve, p2’s explosive turn ones seems to put him even more ahead!
Especially with swarm decks, who can develop an extremely powerful board on t1 as p2

In even deeper examination of the game, we can observe additional advantages p1 has such as being able to use their bbs first and being able to access the powerful far reaching position of center on the board. I personally do not believe this allows p1 to overcome the advantage of p2 (who, in a mythron brome mirror or wanderer mirror has yet another advantage to curve into truesight jax or wanderer first)

but I would like to know what everyone else thinks, and there is even more to test such as how being first or second as and against certain factions, generals, or deck archetypes can change the playstyle and chances of success. (Such as faie second and p1 going center only to walk into glacial chasm, or swarm slamming a bunch of wraithlings t1) update: certain decks want to go first. Such as oby vet to get an obylesk down uncontested, or magmar to get the golem mettalurgist into lavalasher combo

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I believe this is not even close to being the longest post. But great analysis anyways.

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I think for things like these, i think it’s important (and possible) to make a simplified decision tree, and from there, decide what we should think about the mana contest. I would make one, but i kind of dont want to find out that someone’s already done that and i wasted my time

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I love the first turns in duelyst. In most card games the first move is usually pretty obvious, you either play your one drop, or you do nothing. I’ve had numerous gauntlet games where I have a weird collection of early cards and have to decide if I want to charge in, play defensively, or do some weird in the middle strategy. I usually end up playing way too aggressively, but it’s nice that those options exist from the start of the game.

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So talking about 1st/2nd advantage for certain generals/ decks. Kaelos most of the time wants to go first, to establish his backstab without the need to activate inner focus/protocol(atleast of what i have heard). Swarm lilithe player 2, because the opener with furiosa crypto is quite powerful, creating 3 2/2s and a 1/2 minion. I believe trial Magmar would like to go 2nd because t1 krater+amplification is a 4/7 that deals 1 dmg to everything. Obelysk vet would prefer p1 to center the obelysk, while golems would like p2 due to metalurgist+dreamshaper opening. Strategos brome wants to go 2nd due to more mana for more 1 attack dudes. Also every wanderer deck prefers going 2nd due to a early wanderer.

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Turns out that according to @yerboijosh Songhai has a very high winrate going first but low going second.

And as a Vanar player I can confirm that t1 2 drop, t2 wisp, t3 D-Blades ruins anybody’s chance of winning the game.

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I swear every single post you write is a copy of an old post. I swear you’re just trolling us. Are you doing this on purpose? Just going back through and rewriting posts to mess with us? Every single one. Am I crazy

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What about this one?

I think Duelyst probably has the best answer to turn 1 advantage. player 1 gets to develop their board first, while player 2 has more resources to work with. Player one still normally gets access to 4 mana first, though, due to using a two drop to secure a mana tile. Comes out to be fairly even over the course of a game, in my experience.

Silly loliertist, you didn’t write it; you typed it!

(Plus have you seen @kirabi’s tourney report for 1-23-2018? It’s freakin HUGE!)

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Usually feels quite fair. Until recently I saw a Stratego guy P2T1 stealing all 3 mana tiles :grimacing:.

true news fam, even worse in the mirror matches

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What are you talking about? There’s posts with new players and their decks asking for advice all the time

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Arg every thread I make turns out to be a revival

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That was another thread he made… but that was while he wasn’t better than me…

The Necromancy is strong with this one…:wink:

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Loliconartist the life giver

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How? They get lucky with their zyx spawns or did they just spam 1 drops?

Looks like my memory wasn’t super accurate. 3rd tile was denied and not taken. Still zero mana tiles for 1st player.
Theoretically possible to get all 3 mana tiles though with lucky zyx or another two 1 drops in hand.

Order in pic is Celebrant>jaxi>zyx on mana tile>cleric.
TurnOne

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