It’s not that easy. I’d rather have plasma or thumping wave over blast most of the times
Any S-Rank or high ranking diamond players that use or used a vetruvian deck to achieve it this season currently? Im currently on rank 2 about to go to rank 1 and im running a zirix swarm dervish deck with our glorious sand sister. Reason im asking this is because i would love for these people to post their decklist so we could have an analysis of what cards are powerful and what combinations are good for this current meta.
This is the deck I got S-Rank with just now.
Zephyr + Falcius provide insane board clear possibilities which won me most games against Abyssian Swarm even after they got their furious BBS.
Autach’s Gifts and Grandmaster Nosh-rak are the finishers.
I tried Incinera for a while but ended up cutting it for it costs too much mana. Syvrel The Exile serves a similar purpose and helps control the board early. I would put more in but I only own one. Day Watchers are probably to cut then, I put those in after I raged a lot losing to aggro Magmar. They are not too bad though by helping to come back after a big burst play by the opponent when they ignore my minions.
I am happy to hear some ideas for improvement. Have fun!
I don’t want to open another vetruvian thread so here are my thoughts :
Could it be that vetruvian are weak or (were) overpowered because their faction specific weakness is the only one non directly related to cards games?
If we think about it all the other existent decks/factions use tactics directly related or similar to other pre-existing card games, lyonar value, magmar rush, vanar life burn (with good stalling and walls), abyssian swarm/strongest late game, songhai out of hand aggro/combo.
And then vetruvians, positioning on board.
The faction who should have the better positioning tools, but has the lowest range removal of the game.
Just some thoughts
Vetruvian is weak right now? I mean, we don’t get to sandbag Entropic Gaze, but all in all I’d say that Divine Spark on it’s own was enough to put Vet in a better place. Vet decks can be built and tuned with consistency in mind now.
That is not the point.
I’m not questioning the power of the faction.
Vets were the most unique faction. They used to be abme to grant blast to anything, stars fury to burst you down if you position poorly. And has the greatest late game spell - time maelstorm. It was the most flavorful faction although abit over tuned. So CPG “fixed” them by removing every single faction identity they had, no compensation, no nothing, just downright nerfs to oblivion.
Now we’re somehow given a new theme of “Vitruvian” where everything is general centered. And it’s obviously not working when you make a get that utilizes the board but.print cards that can cheese value from a global range and keywords and spells that just doesn’t care about your positioning.
I’m going to have to disagree with you, I think Vet had a poor identity and started to find one as the game progressed. For context, I’m a Vet main with 1100 with the factions and has been playing ever since the beta through Vet’s best and worst times.
To start off, yeah back then we had Third Wish and Time Maelstrom, but that was literately all we had. Vetruvian’s minions were so completely unplayable that decks opted to play nothing but neutral minions plus Third Wish and Time Maelstrom. That’s not the sign of a healthy faction if your most optimal decks doesn’t even want to use its own minions. It’s also not healthy for all the power in the faction to rest in two cards, it screws over balancing really hard becasue you do much to the faction with out touching those two cards.
Also, lets be honest those two cards were kind of bs. Turn one and next turn minion Third Wish won the game if your opponent didn’t draw dispel, this combo drove Magmar out of the meta back then becasue they couldn’t answer it effectively and it was so good it nearly single handibly made Vet the best faction in the game. And Time Maelstrom was the biggest get out of jail ticket in the game. One game I was completely surrounded, half hp, and with no board, but becasue I chained Time Maelstroms I somehow pulled lethal on a 3/4 hp Lynor(I think?) out of no where(to be fair he forgot to play around Stars’ Fury). Both cards were broken and as soon both got nerfed Vet went from the absolute best to HS priest bad level of bad(During that time thing were so bad the factions best deck was Inner Oasis Mechazor.)
Also as for no compensation, I’m going to disagree with that as well. Zirix got his identity in Shimzar with the release of powerful support. Falcius is a god send to the faction, it’s hand down one of the most powerful removals in the game allowing the player to answer a minion and develop their own. Pax is one of the best openers in the game and has massive synergy with Obelisks. Whispers of the Sands and support like Allomancer made Obelisks playable. And all of these cards breathed life into old Vet cards. Obelisk are actually a good deck now, if you told me this during the beta I’d call you crazy. Vet players have been trying forever to make it work and it has only been now that it’s finally a strong competitive deck, yeah it has its hard counters but it’s good enough for players like F8D and people on the reddit to make it to S-rank. And in Bloodborn they’re trying to give Sajj a stronger identity as well. Artifact Sajj is starting to look like a decent deck with recent support. Cards like Zephr and Autrach’s are really good and have greatly improved Sajj. Also Nosh-Rak gives something Vet desperately needed, a finisher. Yes, it’s a win more card but that’s what Vet needed, a I WIN NOW card. Obelisk Vet has problems closing out games, they really needed something to finish the game once they established board control otherwise it became a game of chasing the enemy around the map and hope thy don’t pull out of hand damage.
Overall, I’d say we developed a healthier identity. it’s no longer just Third Wish and Time Maelstrom but a myriad of different cards now including those two. Personally, I’m content with Vet right now. Yes, the Siphon Energy nerf sucked. And yes we’re probably the worst faction right now. And yes the faction could probably need a bit more work. But we’re at a point where a skilled Vet player can get over those weaknesses and ladder pretty high and quite frankly I’m grateful for that.
Skill doesn’t account for the inability to deal with a minion that is either ranged or parked into a corner.
I realize that statement is argumentative. I’m a massive fan of how Vetruvian is designed. It’s an incredibly complex faction. I can’t stand losing a match I would have won simply because I have no way to deal with a minion I can’t walk up to.
skill sure helps, if you position your units good you can easily affect enemy’s board setting gaining reach and a possible way to counter back-line cards.
The same thing applies if you are good enough to know against what deck you are playing, you’ll know when to trade board or face, as a little example, you’ll want the enemy board to be ever clean against lyonar to limit holy immolation or divine bond values. It may seems rather simple and logical, but that actually requires some skills, like knowing how to foretold enemy plays.
ranged removal is not what the vetruvian faction needs (if they want to keep up the no-range vet’s limitation), but, actually i don’t know what they needs as a faction.
I thought that cards like incinera and nosh rak would have solved the problem (at least, some parts of it).
My only personal conclusion is that vets are gonna be the stronger mid-game decks, thus being maybe the most difficult faction to play in the game as every mistake is punished very hard and bad positioning leads to almost inevitable “death” due to their lack of ranged removal. Without mentioning control is not reliable and aggro requires a good hand and not always work (when using them).
I have to agree to.disagree. I mean your points for how vets had no good minions were valid and has to use neutrals. And those two were indeed broken like I mentioned, they needed down tuning instead of nerfing it to.oblivion, now they don’t really get much play except in very specific archetypes.
Time.manipulation and blast were THE theme for Vetruvian. Like Abyssians with deathwatch, wraithlings, shadowcreeps. Lyonar with zeal, provokes. Vanar with infiltrate and vespyr etc. Those two cards atm only serve for general each. Third wish is quite good by I like sajj and don’t enjoy zirix’s swarm playstyle. But third wish only functions with dervishes. However isn’t scion’s third wish a faction card thing? As in it’s THE faction card like makantor for magmar, holy immolation for lyonar, removals for vanar, phoenix fire for songhai and so forth. Time Maelstorm can only be played in Sajj artifact decks which atm is not exactly the best laundering deck, it’s a gimmick deck atm.
Where vets are atm is the dev’s desperate attempt at making them viable with power creeped cards imo. Let’s be honest, falcius does too much for a 3 drop, pax even if it could be played around, on paper it’s overstated, especially when the stats are distributed in 3 bodies. Nosh rak altho slow kinda does too much too, blast and flying AND double damage with good stats? Nimbus is also questionable, with that amount if health and the effect being triggered whenever takes damage,meaning trading it is a bad idea and forces a hard removal.
It’s as.if they realised they had no idea how to balance the faction’s identity they initially gave vets, ditched the idea, and print out ultra value cards for vets to make them the value minion faction. And the control aspect of the faction since getaways ignored as well. Because Sajj was.obviously built for that, however vets still have no healing. And what control decks have no ranged removals?? As well as other ways to compensate for it by being able to neutralize something played in a corner?
True they had bad in faction minions back then, but at least blast was playable where as it’s nonexistent now. Time maelstorm was too strong but now it’s only playable in Artifact sajj. Control vets are dead with siphon nerf as well as sajj. No heals as well. And the entire faction right now is held together with cards that are borderline broken like falcius and pax. I don’t think they’re broken but they certainly do raise some eyebrows when people say they’re completely “fair”.
If you’re playing Zirix versus Reva or Abyssian you get in their faces and deny positioning. You try to get a surround on your opponent by placing units behind there general, this prevents them from running back and getting a good position for ranged minions. Applies mostly to Reva since she can only place heartseekers next to her but is helpful against abyssian. It also means you can normally drop a minion and chain on shroud to dispel said minion.
Aside from positioning aspects we have, Tiger, Rasha’s Curse, and Third Wish. Third Wish is great if you have a iron dervish on board, which you’ll normally have as Zirix and it’ll trade into any of these utiltly minions and live, leaving you with a flying dervish. Or if you have any Obelisk on board it works. Sajj is mostly about Ankh and either Tracer or Incerea to reach these targets.
I understand it’s not exactly straightforward to reach these targets and in some situations it’s not possible. But to say that Vet is straight up unable to reach these targets and is completely out of your hands is folly .
Personally, I’ve never seen Time Manipulation nor Blast as the central themes of Vetruvian. Vet has one card based around Time Manipulation, Time Maelstrom. Also about faction keywords, they are not everything to a faction. Magmar doesn’t really care about its keywords, Songhai is not relegated to backstabs, Vanar doesn’t rely on Infiltrate to close out games, etc. The only faction whos hole game plan revolves around their keyword is Abyssian who was designed like that. And Third Wish stopped being THE faction card a long time ago, others cards have long since taken its place.
Personally, I’d say many of the cards are fine and not the result of power creep. Pax has a lot of value but is heavily delayed and a battlepet. Falcius I’ll give you that, but it is something Vet really needs. And Nosh-Rak is only good with an established board otherwise it’s a flying scarab.
Vet has never been a good Control faction contrary to most people’s beliefs. It was good at controlling the board and then ending the game in the late game but it has no inherent win con nor a super powerful late game when you compare it to Mag and Abyssian. I perosanlly argue that Sajj is better as a Midrange general than a control one after large amounts of testing. And as for are these card “fair”? Of course not, that’s the point. Factions can’t be fair, is Silverguard Knight and Windblade adept, card equal in stats to the mana tier above them fair? Is Songhai’s explosiveness fair? Is Vanar’s plethra of removal fair? No, it isn’t. Factions need strong and quite frankly broken things to keep them relevant, none of the other faction are fair and I don’t see why Vet should be too.
Are you not contradicting yourself? You were the one that said that the cards they had back then was broken and I agreed. However, I wanted them to be tuned down instead of getting nerfed to oblivion. Yet you tell me that things aren’t supposed to be fair as different factions accomplish different things. So vets needed those cards , blast and time maelstorm as their win con, because cp removed them without giving anything back. Hence it made it kinda awkward to be able to answer things with siphon, dom will and entropic decay and have no follow up ultimate game ending cards like maelstorm for an entire board’s burst or just whittle them to death with blast (albeit broken) but it was something.
As for sajj being a midrange general I would agree to disagree. I myself did climbed to S with midrange sajj. However one problem persists is that she has a control bbs, that itself indicates that sajj is intended to play as a control general. As for it outperforming zirix? Not really. Midrange decks build up the board, zirix can do that effortlessly with his bbs. And if sajj is doing fine as a midrange general, you wouldn’t see people being forced to lay back on zirix to even try climbing after the siphon nerf.
Songhai does in fact have their faction identity, although I did a bad job at elaborating in my previous post. Songhai does rely on backstab, kaleos is exactly that, the bbs was meant to help it reposition it minions so that they can perform more consistent backstab. Reva don’t utilize it mainly because her bbs wasn’t meant to be used that way? As shown by her previous dominance of the meta, her identity would be decks with spell synergy. That is their identity.
Magmar doesn’t care about key words? Their entire faction is dedicated to rush frenzy, their buffs give frenzy, artifacts as well. Two rush minions and the whole faction has high attack values.
Vanar doesn’t rely on infiltrate to close out games but heavily rely on it to even make games winnable with their tempo early drops. Crystal cloaked is essentially a 4-3, snowchasers give tempo and value in the long run. They require sucheck early cards to carry them into the late game. At least before this expansion gave them so many new tools.
Vets right now utilize non if their keywords, or at least as efficiently as they should (mainly Sajj). The only keyword that vets right now still utilize is just dervish vet. And I know many like it but at the same time many don’t, forcing players to play a specific archetype to be viable is never the way. Especially when you killed the archetype by nerfing a key card without compensation.
As for time manipulation and blast? Like you said, you never viewed them as the central themes of vetruvian as a personal opinion;many however, did. Even if they hated it, they know vets by blast and time maelstorm. Vets required blast to remove threats in back lines but instead it got abused to the point where it’s just downright oppressive. Same as time maelstorm, what was meant to be a late game card that dictates vets strength in the late game turned out to be too strong than they expected it to be and uninteractive. Taking a whole turn, draw a card, and being able to move everything twice was just absurd.
Vets were a control faction, crushing their opponents to submission by being able to blast threats in the back lines, and entropic, dom will and aymara in your face to make their close quarter battles top tier as well. Also having time maelstorm to lose games out as they lack burst after stars fury nerf. Even portal guardian was meant to control the board, it just does the.job too well. A minion that has low attack because it depends on spawns to even get attack value with 9health as a drop and frenzy.
Now? Other than ultimate value minions, vets make use of nothing in their faction. Primarily sajj, zirix still has dervish going on for it and that’s it.
Time Maelstrom is better this way. It’s a functional- if not undersupported utility spell. There comes a point where you play so much EDH, that you realize that Time Warp just isn’t a fun thing to play or play against. It’s very existence in a deck creates a need for the opponent to just “kill them before they do it”.
We all have gripes with Third Wish- When I first started lurking the old forum, there were waaaay too many Third Wish threads. But really, for as long as Tiger is what it is, the Legendary buff spell can’t be a blast enabler (so sad ). In Christmasland, I would have Third Wish give the General 3 ATK, 3 movement, and damage prevention to layer with Maelstrom, Incinera, Falcius, etcetc.
Vet is still a control oriented faction, even the most aggressive Vet decks are slow and midrangey. Both expansions have been good to us though, and I don’t see that pattern ending. Each new tool that supports other undersupported cards makes new avenues open open.
*Astral Flood and Pax enable Inner Oasis
*Incinera and Zephyr makes Sajj less reliant on Ankh
*Divine Spark is exactly the card Vet needed to make decks more consistent
*Autarch’s Gifts and Pantheran are archetype building (giving Aurora’s Tears and Third Wish something to support, ontop of Spark giving the decks real capacity for card flow.)
- Corpse Combustion is silly and memey- but flavorful and fun.
- Nosh-Rak and Nimbus make Aymara Healer’s ubiquity dubious. Not only are they just very very good- but they give incentive to back them up with other fatties like Kron, Incinera, Blades, Scarab etc.
Vet’s in a good place, both flavorfully- and mechanically. At this rate, Expansion 3 will push our deckbuilding choices into maximum overdrive It really isn’t worth harping on the nerfs, or what Vet lacks too much, because even if we’re due for buffs- the shear flexibility of Vetruvian decks right now is amazing.
Could Entropic Decay cost 3? Sure
Could Siphon cantrip? Why not?
Could Circle and Oserix cost 6? It would make sense.
Could Fountain of Youth, Windslicer, and Orb Weaver not be bricks? We could only hope
We’ll have to leave that end of it in the Dev’s court.
So seeing we ended this thread on a sort of disappointing note ill leave my newest decklist.
Its typical swarm Zirix with a spell jammer…jammed in. In my opinion Falcius is usually underwhelming for Zirix so i cut one for and extra nosh rak. This is to ensure that he is drawn by turn 7 to finish the game.
Anyway i would really love if some people could help me test out this deck and refine it so we can cure the meta cancer and hopefully get the devs to nerf another one of our cards.
Would love to, but still don’t have Ayamara or Spelljammer or the second Nimbus. But I will say that Vet has been a good faction so far this season won 4 out of 5 games, 3 wins against Magmar, 1 against Songhai and lost to Vanar. (in total played 12, won 10, lost 2, plus 2 disconnects before joining into a game). So not bad for my casual playing. Managed to craft the Allomancer that was recommended from last time but never got to play it yet. Doesn’t like to be drawn when I play, even after spending all that spirit to craft 3 of them.
I’d give this a shot if I could get freaking Noshrak. I might still give it a try with meltdown instead.
I would say that Aymara is the most important Vetruvian minion well Aymara and Pax. Spelljammer isnt really necessary but i found the consistent and instant card draw she provides to be more suitable as opposed to my previous sojourner, reason being that Sojourner will usually either make your cards get milled, stay in your hand cause your afraid to play her or get instantly dealt with for no card draw. Allomancer isnt that game winning but it require either 2 cards to be dealt with if they dont want it to spawn an obelysk. The reason i recommend having 3 is because its a great bait for your opponents removal/dispells before your more important minions arrive. Im curious though, how much card draw do you have in your deck?
The way I see it, Vetruvian is in the same place now as Vanar was last winter.
Vetruvian’s identity has been boiled down to one solitary deck; Obelisks. While this one deck has been enjoying relatively high success, Vetruvian is left as a sort of one trick pony, able to only make one decent deck. When structures manages to work, it can give top-tier decks a run for their money. However, if the opponent happens to play a ranged value generator before you can set up your pillars, then you are as good as dead. This weakness had been planted in the faction by the developers through the siphon nerf. However, the Bloodborn expansion did little to alleviate it (all ranged options introduced here cost 5 or more mana) and no compensation was added. Other themes in the faction, such as control, sabotage, and General support, are all but extinct.
This is very similar to the Vanar decks of late 2015. At that time, Vanar was easily the worst faction due to their weakness to AOE removal. If the opponent happened to have Tempest, or Plasma storm, which were not uncommon at that time, Vanar automatically lost. The only viable Vanar deck was a mid-rangy-controlish-vespyr-thing, and several faction themes, such as walls and infiltrate, were more-or-less dead. This parallels Vetruvian’s current situation in that the faction is limited to only one deck archetype and possesses a glaring weakness that is commonly found in the meta, being ranged threats and AOE respectively.
Right now, Vetruvian has managed to squeeze out one successful deck, but it’s being held back by their lack of ranged removal. Sajj has gotten a ton of support, but cannot survive in this meta. Sajj trades health for Value and health is so valuable in this meta, with all the aggro running around. To make matters worse, Sajj has no reliable options to regain said health other than a 6 drop.
I’m still hoping that either expansion 3 or a balance patch will give Vetruvian a much needed boost. Right now, it relies on one mechanic, obelisks, to stay alive. While the Obelisk deck is really fun, it feels bad having all other Vetruvian experiments crushed by Meta decks. I hope Vet gets some sort of healing and/or some way to deal with things at a distance in the future.
I would Argue that the Bloodborn Expansion did little for Vetruvian:
- Nosh-rak: Arguably the best of the grandmasters. It turns every minion you have past 7 mana into a huge potential threat
- Autarch’s Gifts: A theoretically great card. However, in the lategame, you are ususally very low on health and are thus unable to benefit much from the artifacts.
- Incinera: A decent card. It allows Sajj to run away/ pursue the enemy better but it comes out too late to combat ranged threats effectively.
- Divine Spark: This spell is largely outclassed by neutral options such as Sojourner, Spelljammer, or L’kian. To make matters worse, the design is rather bland.
- Zephyr: His ability, while powerful, is super conditional. Your opponent must have multiple units around your general and you must have your BBS active for this to work. This makes the card very easy to anticipate and rarely useful.
- Stone to Spears: Every faction needs one or two unplayable cards. At least the ability to more Obelisks is interesting enough.
In conclusion, ROTB gave Vetruvian powerful lategame, but no way to gat to said lategame other than a very situational board clear.
How I would change these:
6 mana Restore 5 health and equip two random Vetruvian Artifacts.
The artifacts are much more useful if given some health to spare. Compare to Trinity Oath and Aymara Healer
4 mana, 2/5. Whenever your general deals damage to a minion, restore that much health to your general.
An effective way for Sajj to heal. Compare to Keliano and Scintilla.
3 mana, add two Stardust to your hand
3 mana deal 4 damage to and dispel target minion
Versatile, though inefficient, ranged removal for Vetruvian that requires a turn to set up but is quite powerful in the lategame. Compare to Chromatic cold and Onyx Bear Seal.
All of these ideas are just that; ideas. However, I truely hope that Counterplay expands on Vetruvian’s identity in upcoming patches or expansions. The Bloodborn expansion did not quite stimulate Sajj the way it did with other underplayed generals, such as Lilith and Starhorn (Kara and Kaleos also did not see significant boosts and Zir’an’s boosts, while helpful, may have benefited Argeon more than herself , but that is another topic for another time) but I still hope that Counterplay can diversify Vetruvian the same way they diversified Vanar a year ago. Since they have succeeded in dragging Vanar into the daylight a year ago, I am hopeful that they can do the same with Vetruvian now.