Duelyst Forums

Tempo Lyonar still broken

#43

So anything you are losing to needs to be nerfed?

Thats how the matchup works, tempo/aggro decks try to win early, control try to stall it out and win later when they are stronger.

  • Healnar is a control deck and arguably stronger than tempo lyonar.
  • Vetruvians can often beat tempo lyonar in tempo plays.
  • Lately i even beat a bunch of tempo lyonar with reva, and i always considered tempo lyonar counter to reva, i guess its more like 50/50 now.
  • Abyssian with their DFC and revenant spamms, if lyonar doesn’t get tempest/skorn early he is just dead, even when he dies if the abyssian is good enough he can still win.
  • Fae has enough removal and enfeeble to crush all tempo advantages lyonar could have gained.

Control decks are just harder to play, you have more opportunities to make a mistake and each mistake can cost you the game, especially positioning. With bad positioning you are going to get crushed by any s rank level player, no matter what he plays pretty much.

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#44

This is sortof a foolish sentiment in it’s own funny way.

Laddering doesn’t display an understanding of balance, it displays an ability to have long queue sessions and learn enough about the game to collect chevrons. Why would the developers seek balance-oriented input from that group of people over those who ladder infrequently? Why would anyone actually believe that the developers actually pay attention to balance discussions on the forum?

Simply put, it’s typical for designers to sequester themselves from balance discussions because if they have the slightest inkling of wanting to vindicate their designs, they’re likely to be dogpiled by salty forum-goers. The only real purpose to balance discussion is as mental exercise for us forum-goers, and you really don’t have to have the time and energy to perpetually queue to do that.

In terms of balance, the designers disregard direct player input (they prefer logistics and direct observation over large sets of permutations)- and whether or not it’s better that way is irrelevant. It doesn’t take observing the regular cycles for long to realize why though. We can hope they’ll tune into our threads out of curiosity, and look for input in terms of making the game more flavorful or exciting- but what’s “good”, “bad”, or “busted” to player X vs player Y is superfluous to their job as designers.

7 Likes
#45

I kinda understand what you guys are saying, but can somebody actually post a generic “Tempo Lyonar” List so I can actually contribute?

I’m only in silver (almost gold), so I don’t really see this stuff much.

Yes. I’m in silver.
(I like to meme around, okay?)

1 Like
#46
[Album] Lyonar Lists | Updated: 12.23.17

The bottom is tempo lionar, grincherZ is a good player, that many people use his decks as basis for their own or as is.

#47

I consider myself a casual player, playing only about 100-150 wins per month, last month i got to s rank so i played a little more than usual, 180 wins (Got to s rank after 119 wins), i know some people make it to s rank after ~50 wins. So i wouldn’t say getting there is only about grinding and impossible for casual players.

There is quite a big difference between s rank players and even diamond rank 5 players, in terms of experience and understanding of the game. sure if you were s rank and didn’t bother to to play enough games to climb to s rank in the following months you likely know what is strong and what is not. Atleast s rank players don’t complain as much about random cards.

Seeing some of those balance suggestions, that people post on forums i’m actually glad that the developers don’t read those posts…

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#48

Our good forum mod @Ryvirath reads every single post on this forum, and im sure some player input is passed on to the folks who do balancing

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#49

Mhm you’ve hit it pretty square on the head. I read everything and I make sure to pass along relevant stuff like player perception, how you guys feel about x card, etc etc. So balance discussion stuff may not get passed along word for word, but it’s my job to keep the rest of the team informed about you guys and how your feeling and that can factor into certain decisions

19 Likes
#50

Well sad day butter biscuit :frowning:

From any or the majority of the things I’ve put up, I’m sure you could realize my interest in this entire field. I know people, including myself, may have bias and opinions, but if an objective approach is utilized with supportive evidence, I would hope that it would be looked at briefly at the very least.

Not even a glance? Sad day para :frowning: :smile:

1 Like
#51

This isn’t the same as saying that the devs abandon us, or don’t observe the forum and reddit. It’s simply that balance oriented discussion has a habit of being counter-productive in terms of seeking to better utilize existing design space. I too, take CCG design with a great deal of interest, but the first thing you learn about designing a CCG, is that they are obnoxiously difficult games to make well.

Regardless, what I was driving at was more the concept that we weigh in on balance with our own ideas to better understand the different ways that the same thing is interpreted.

It also isn’t a particularly sad thing. We’re here to interact with one another, and share cool thoughts and experiences, but if you feel desperate enough about a balance issue, you can ofcourse approach the devs on Discord (though I’d certainly try to be more eloquent, and open minded about their point of view than “X is broken, fix it this way”- as they’re more likely to hear out something written with a sense of humor and a good chunk of critical rationale.)

#53

So how would one pilot this deck?

Put down value things until your opponent runs out of answers and then start snowballing?

#54

The real problem with Lyonar is that out of all of the in-faction minions, only 1 of them is an actual lion!

R.I.P faction identity…

5 Likes
#55

Hey, don’t cry too much, because in Vanar, none is an actual van …
:minibus: :minibus: :minibus:

19 Likes
#56

True, and SONGhai doesn’t play music at all! This whole game is a lie!

10 Likes
#57

Deploy your things in such a way that you can counter their play while spending as little of your board as possible, while steadily developing your board. Silverguards pin generals and are just generally difficult to deal with, Windblade often gets a free face hit and forces them to trade into it. Lion lets you spread damage out to multiple things, or tuck it away from the enemy stuff for a sweet Immolation. Sentinels are the same relative concept as Blood Tear. Tempest lets you counter the opponent’s board and trade as much of your would be dead material into their face at once as possible.

The deck is all about just building strong tempo plays, and making your opponent’s positioning progressively more awkward. Where Midrange and Control decks want to constantly re-position in a strong way- you’re trying to specifically make your opponent’s position progressively worse- not unlike an aggro or combo deck. But the difference is that you are more focused on getting the best tempo trades than you are about generating the best level of threat (like an aggro deck) or assembling a super high synergy play (like combo.)

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#59

Please stay on topic guys, it was a good joke but no need to derail the thread.

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#60

Back to the actual topic, if you want to deal with Lyonar, each faction has its own tools,

Lyonar: Large provokes. Tempo lists don’t tend to have an answer to a well-played Ironcliffe Guardian. Multiple resources will need to be used to defeat it out of fear of a powerful Holy Immolation/Divine Bond on the following turn.

Songhai: Probably the weakest against Lyonar. But Juxtaposition can be used to get their units split up so you can take them out 1 at a time. Ranged threats usually bait a Tempest, so use ranged minions in moderation to avoid being wiped out in one fell swoop.

Magmar: Frenzy. FRENZY!!! Lyonar minions stay close for Roar and Zeal buffs, so they’re susceptible to Makantor and Rush-Diretide Frenzy. More-seasoned Lyonar players may play around this, but making positioning awkward is always good.

Vanar: In tempo Lyonar lists, Frostburn and Enfeeble are incredibly punishing. If you carry Dancing Blades, that can make for a clean kill on an Azurite Lion or Windblade Adept, making it a strong tempo and value play. Late games with Meltdown are probably stronger than those with Jax because of Tempest.

Vetruvian: I know there are people who don’t like Zephyr. But I’ll say it has been amazing to have when the Lyonar player tries to lock you down. Falcius has a similar effect to Dancing Blades in that it clears a minion for free essentially while giving you a body that can one-shot a two-drop, which makes up most of tempo Lyonar curves. Stars Fury can be a great finisher if your opponent commits to the board enough. Aymara is devastating to those decks too!

Abyssian: Kelaino is too good against tempo Lyonar. It gasses out these decks so well, and the longer it takes to deal damage, the stronger your chances of winning will be since you have a strong late game unlike them. You have Klaxon (large provoke that they hate) and Spectral Revenant (large Rush that they hate)

3 Likes
#61

Vetruvian- Psychic Conduit, Hexblade and Aymara Healer have a habit of giving TL the business. The best conduit target is Lion, but even just taking a Bloodtear or Sentinel does enough. Bone Swarm is good here, but I’m just not a fan of the card in general.

Neutral- Hollow Grovekeeper tech to mop up Silverguard/ Ironcliffe. Paragon Tech punishes Roar plays. Blades plays the same sort of game, but is often more effective AGAINST TL than in it’s arsenal, because the deck cannot afford to fall behind. I’ve found that the deck is stupid weak to Maw, and while they might mop it up for free behind a Tempest or Sentinel, getting to chew up their board efficiently makes it significantly harder to look for sweet Immo plays.

Abyssian- Spectral Blade. Absolutely invalidates TL’s threatbase. Klaxon, if you’re running a slower build has the same guiding principal as Aymara Healer. Also, TL is surprisingly ill-equipped to handle Juggernauts.

1 Like
#62

Overall i feel that current tempo lyonar lists are too slow.
They are more midrangish than aggro. Playing circle of life is nice and all but that’s a wasted turn to remove 1 minion, somethimes you have to use it on a 2 drop which makes it even worse tempo play. This isn’t a deck that is going to win before 7 mana consistently, it basically feels like healnar but without much sinergy or lategame plays in with case healnar should just be better.

If the lyonar player isn’t good he will position poorly, so you can kill his minions easily with AOE or your minions, or just kite him. If he really is playing “like a monkey” as the thread author suggested, this is very likely to happen. Lyonar don’t have much out of hand damage so if you clear his board and play around Holly immolation, there is little he can do to comeback.

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#63

while i don’t want argue, I would still like to side on the top 1 s-rank player regarding his opinion on holy immolation: https://www.reddit.com/r/duelyst/comments/5rxv80/next_up_for_nerf_holy_immolation/ddbgffw/

#64

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