Duelyst Forums

Tempo Lyonar still broken

#33

i actually meant number of played holly immolation / per win statistics, not number of players in general.
i have seen those statistics when they were published, by definition hightest rank a chievable will have the least players as it is hard to get there. no reason to bother getting there if it isn’t hard to begin with.

just watched the replay of my last lyonar game, i played 0 holly immulation and still beat a cassiva in rank 8 game, i admit it wasn’t exactly the best cassiva i’ve ever faced i still had about 20 hp in the end. all that thanks mostly to just proper positioning and forcing her to take unfavorable trades.

#34

again those are not the statistics i was interested in.

have you seen a game that makes balance changes according to lower brackets of play?
i sure haven’t.
nonetheless variax is considered weak (becose is inconsistent) by most s rank players, yet it was nerfed in the last path. why? to make it a little less opressive in the lower ranks. so yeah they do take into consideration opinions of lower ranks players as well.

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#35

According to what you said in your next sentence, apparently one valid answer is: Duelyst.

2 Likes
#36

What @gsvalhalla said.

#37

I fully agree that they should pay a lot of attention to what less than S players ENJOY.

I just disagree that they should pay attention to what less than S players think is BALANCED.

Just my personal opinion.

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#38

No it’s not. You know why? Because they often chose to play it just for that 4 face dmg and a minion heal (which is equal to more face damage).

#39

Who tf plays Holy Immo if you aren’t clearing at least a minion, healing a critical unit or using it for lethal? That’s a terrible play, leaves you without an answer if they start to surround you

#40

Well it someone is playing dumb slow decks like me, the face damage from Hollyimmo is the biggest concern.

#41

is it worth 4 mana? i doubt it, most argeon’s minions don’t even have 4 hp for the heal to take full effect, ziran could do better for 4 mana. it sertainly is one of the worst possible ways to use it.

#42

What do you want me to say? “no shit Sherock?” I’m just describing what I’m losing to lately, and well if guy just uses a holly immolation on empty board on fully healed minion and THEN he hits me in the face with it and he still wins the game, well it just makes me upset. Apparently my control decks cannot survive 15 damage burst. Well that was expected.

#43

So anything you are losing to needs to be nerfed?

Thats how the matchup works, tempo/aggro decks try to win early, control try to stall it out and win later when they are stronger.

  • Healnar is a control deck and arguably stronger than tempo lyonar.
  • Vetruvians can often beat tempo lyonar in tempo plays.
  • Lately i even beat a bunch of tempo lyonar with reva, and i always considered tempo lyonar counter to reva, i guess its more like 50/50 now.
  • Abyssian with their DFC and revenant spamms, if lyonar doesn’t get tempest/skorn early he is just dead, even when he dies if the abyssian is good enough he can still win.
  • Fae has enough removal and enfeeble to crush all tempo advantages lyonar could have gained.

Control decks are just harder to play, you have more opportunities to make a mistake and each mistake can cost you the game, especially positioning. With bad positioning you are going to get crushed by any s rank level player, no matter what he plays pretty much.

2 Likes
#44

This is sortof a foolish sentiment in it’s own funny way.

Laddering doesn’t display an understanding of balance, it displays an ability to have long queue sessions and learn enough about the game to collect chevrons. Why would the developers seek balance-oriented input from that group of people over those who ladder infrequently? Why would anyone actually believe that the developers actually pay attention to balance discussions on the forum?

Simply put, it’s typical for designers to sequester themselves from balance discussions because if they have the slightest inkling of wanting to vindicate their designs, they’re likely to be dogpiled by salty forum-goers. The only real purpose to balance discussion is as mental exercise for us forum-goers, and you really don’t have to have the time and energy to perpetually queue to do that.

In terms of balance, the designers disregard direct player input (they prefer logistics and direct observation over large sets of permutations)- and whether or not it’s better that way is irrelevant. It doesn’t take observing the regular cycles for long to realize why though. We can hope they’ll tune into our threads out of curiosity, and look for input in terms of making the game more flavorful or exciting- but what’s “good”, “bad”, or “busted” to player X vs player Y is superfluous to their job as designers.

7 Likes
#45

I kinda understand what you guys are saying, but can somebody actually post a generic “Tempo Lyonar” List so I can actually contribute?

I’m only in silver (almost gold), so I don’t really see this stuff much.

Yes. I’m in silver.
(I like to meme around, okay?)

1 Like
#46
[Album] Lyonar Lists | Updated: 12.23.17

The bottom is tempo lionar, grincherZ is a good player, that many people use his decks as basis for their own or as is.

#47

I consider myself a casual player, playing only about 100-150 wins per month, last month i got to s rank so i played a little more than usual, 180 wins (Got to s rank after 119 wins), i know some people make it to s rank after ~50 wins. So i wouldn’t say getting there is only about grinding and impossible for casual players.

There is quite a big difference between s rank players and even diamond rank 5 players, in terms of experience and understanding of the game. sure if you were s rank and didn’t bother to to play enough games to climb to s rank in the following months you likely know what is strong and what is not. Atleast s rank players don’t complain as much about random cards.

Seeing some of those balance suggestions, that people post on forums i’m actually glad that the developers don’t read those posts…

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#48

Our good forum mod @Ryvirath reads every single post on this forum, and im sure some player input is passed on to the folks who do balancing

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#49

Mhm you’ve hit it pretty square on the head. I read everything and I make sure to pass along relevant stuff like player perception, how you guys feel about x card, etc etc. So balance discussion stuff may not get passed along word for word, but it’s my job to keep the rest of the team informed about you guys and how your feeling and that can factor into certain decisions

19 Likes
#50

Well sad day butter biscuit :frowning:

From any or the majority of the things I’ve put up, I’m sure you could realize my interest in this entire field. I know people, including myself, may have bias and opinions, but if an objective approach is utilized with supportive evidence, I would hope that it would be looked at briefly at the very least.

Not even a glance? Sad day para :frowning: :smile:

1 Like
#51

This isn’t the same as saying that the devs abandon us, or don’t observe the forum and reddit. It’s simply that balance oriented discussion has a habit of being counter-productive in terms of seeking to better utilize existing design space. I too, take CCG design with a great deal of interest, but the first thing you learn about designing a CCG, is that they are obnoxiously difficult games to make well.

Regardless, what I was driving at was more the concept that we weigh in on balance with our own ideas to better understand the different ways that the same thing is interpreted.

It also isn’t a particularly sad thing. We’re here to interact with one another, and share cool thoughts and experiences, but if you feel desperate enough about a balance issue, you can ofcourse approach the devs on Discord (though I’d certainly try to be more eloquent, and open minded about their point of view than “X is broken, fix it this way”- as they’re more likely to hear out something written with a sense of humor and a good chunk of critical rationale.)

#53

So how would one pilot this deck?

Put down value things until your opponent runs out of answers and then start snowballing?