There is a way, Gloomshaser, it has a lot of conditions, but it can.
And, you said it, a 6/6 minion for only 3 mana is crazy, so that shows my point.
Take into account that the enemy general cannot deal with this sort of minion in the early game, because he only has 2/3 minions in game (normally). And those will die against a 3/3.
Some balance methods
That goes back to my point that you can’t reduce it to one number. You’d need a probability distribution. Then you could come up with an average, but even that isn’t super useful.
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Just try it out man. Compare it to the other 3-drops in the game in actual gameplay.
Or don’t, and base your paradigm and hence future realm of thought/understanding on a, according to many here, shaky foundation.
There are many scenarios in which having one 6/6 is better than having two 3/3s (for example, Songhai will, as a general rule, have more trouble removing a single large minion than two smaller ones). Sorry mate, it’s not that your “method” is not an “absolute solution”, it’s just that it simply doesn’t work - it’s completely unreliable, because, as people have already pointed out, there are so many “exceptions” to your “rules” that they can’t be really seen as “rules” anymore. And if we try to salvage the one useful part of your “method” - namely, the idea that you can get a rough approximate of a minion’s strength by counting its total stats and adding the value of the effect - well, it turns out that it’s something that everyone’s been doing for, like, forever, and they don’t need any particular “method” to do so.
[I don’t mean to be rude, I appreciate the effort, I do, but defending this “method” is a lost cause, mate.]
Please inform yourself before talking,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnjwdStzUc
both videos are made by a game designer, who knows more than you, and me of course.
Also,maybe you don’t mean to be rude, but when you say that a method is a lost cause you are talking like if you were objectively right, and that’s not the case at all.
This method is just used to chek if any card belongs in the power curve, it can’t take into account ALL possible uses. No method can.
Well, if I “believe” something, I “believe” it’s objectively right 
That’s the definition of knowledge/belief/opinion. There’s nothing either I or you can do about it, mate. I can be wrong, sure, I’m open to the possibility, but I’d have to be convinced to change my opinion. I can’t just arbitrarily decide that the things I believe are no more or less true than their exact opposites, for example - no one can. That’s why human beings like discussing things, making arguments and trying to convince each other they’re right.
The only person who’s being genuinely rude is you, mate. “Please inform yourself before talking” is not a phrase that should be used in any conversation, period.
And let me reiterate, because in the context of the links you’ve just posted I’m not sure you actually understood my point. Making a rough estimate of the power of any given card by adding its stats and assigning a certain value to its effect is something everyone already does. It might be considered a “method” of sorts, but it’s so intuitive to everyone who’s played any CCG at all that you can’t really present it as something “new”.
But you tried to codify something that everyone does instinctively. OK, that’s your right, and it’s certainly an interesting proposition. And of course your “method” can’t take all things into consideration - the most important question now is whether the number of factors this “method” ignores ultimately renders it useless or not. Well, as many have already pointed out in the discussion above, this number is really really large. You can try incorporating those previously ignored factors into your method - by all means, do, if you have enough time and energy - but there are good chances that your initial framework was simply too narrow and you’ll end up with a “method” that consists (almost) solely of exceptions and arbitrary numbers.
Now, you’ve posted links to videos about HS design. Setting aside for a moment what I actually think about the design of this particular game (I think many members of Duelyst community share my quite sceptical attitude here), and the fact that setting a design mandate and estimating the value of an already existing card are two different things, and the fact that those two videos’ link to your argument is tenuous at best, let me just point out one thing: Duelyst has a board. It’s much easier to quantify the worth of a “card” when it does not translate to a “minion” on the board. If you want to estimate the value of any given unit in Duelyst, you must take into account a number of scenarios and factors to do with the board - how the unit “behaves” after it’s played, so to say, in a spatial environment. There are other unique and semi-unique mechanics that you should probably consider if you want your “method” to transition well from a generic CCG to Duelyst (think replacing, universal 3-card limit, importance of early game drops); but in order to get there, you’d need to overcome a frankly astonishing number of much simpler, much more straightforward obstacles that everyone’s already pointed out. Which, once again, leads me to saying: this “method” can be embraced as something everyone already instinctively does (but then it’s not much of a “method”, is it?), but its initial framework is otherwise far too narrow.
Of course, if you want to keep working on it, I wish you good luck - I honestly do. But it doesn’t change the fact that I don’t believe this “method” can be salvaged. You’d need to come up with another one.
I am a game designer. Of turn-based games with tactical combat even.
I declare your method flawed, but of course I am speaking just for myself, not making objective statements for how reality undeniably is.
However, we do HAVE the word ‘objective’ even though EVERYTHING is subjective.
Hence, it must mean something. There’s a value to that word.
Maybe ‘objective’ secretly means the consensus? If one person claims and really honestly believes X is true and everyone else thinks X is false, the most objective of the two (the least LIKELY to be a weird subjective viewpoint) is the viewpoint of the majority (this does assume comparable intelligence (both IQ and the info kind) across everyone in this hypothetical example).
Nah, these operate on two different levels/layers, so to say. I’m going to simplify a bit here, but: “subjective” refers (in its usual, everyday usage) to the practical or epistemological level - defines who a certain thing, or property or feature, belongs to; or who can be seen as a credible opinion-giver on a certain subject. If I say “I’m feeling sick” it’s obviously “subjective”, but not because whether I feel sick or not depends on someone’s opinion, but because I’m the only one who can give a credible (in this case, almost definitive) verdict on the matter.
“Objective” operates on an ontological level, and refers to the things that, quite simply, are - no matter what anyone thinks of them. Obviously not everyone will agree that they are (or aren’t), and they may be (or not be) in a partial or weird or previously unknown way, but the term itself refers to the ontological status of a thing. It’s independent of anyone’s opinion. If you believe that the chair “is”, you believe it “objectively” is (although your way of knowing or not knowing it is, obviously, subjective).
That’s why, strictly speaking, something can be both subjective (again - in this everyday, common sense meaning) and objective. For example, if I hate something, my feeling is obviously subjective (because it’s my feeling), but the fact that I hate it (as long as I indeed hate it) is independent of what anyone thinks about it, and thus it’s objective. It’s a subjective feeling, but the fact that I feel it is objective, so to say.
(I appreciate the sarcasm in the last paragraph tho)
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There is no sarcasm in the last paragraph? How did you read that in there?
Anyway, it’s highly debatable where there exist things which ‘are’. Ever heard of ‘brain in a vat’?
There is no information that we can ever have except maybe some vague awareness or if you believe in a soul etc. that does not come through our subjective channels.
We assume we’re not alone and everything else is a very vivid dream-unlike-those-others-at-night, but we can never prove that this is the case.
You can never prove that you exist outside of my subjective reality, to me. And vice versa.
Hence, objective does kind of mean ‘consensus’, because at some point philosophy is nice and all, but you do need to go kill that mammoth over there.
My take on it anyway.
The method isn’t totally wrong,
Right now one of the problem is the definition of basic ability’s power level, like rush and so.
To start making this method a bit better (i think the op stated clarily that this method isn’t perfect)
This method is heavily bonded to the game, as some “values” needs to be adjusted depending on the game, in this case: duelyst.
Actually the atk of a unit is not important as his def
There will be a need for a multiplier of some sort to adjust to the importance of those values, as an example atk could be less important than def by 1/10 (is an example) so a 3/4 would have a 4.3 total number called tn from now on (def + atk/10)
The same goes for def, we need to apply some kind of multiplier to make some space later for eventual ability’s value as an example let’s say def is 1.5 times important to define the tn of a unit
A 3/4 would have a tn equal to 6.3
(def * 1.5 + atk / 10)
The same goes for each one of the abilities that every unit gets, how many it gets and the sinergy between them
Like rush and frenzy togheter will give more tn to a unit when paired togheter.
You see the problem:
Atk is less important than defence, right?
Using my example multiplier:
a 50/1 (tn 6.5) should be better than a 2/3 (tn 4.7).
While i personally would play a 50/1 for 2 mana (yes, we still didn’t add the “mana” factor) this is far from the truth of duelyst.
Ence there are other multipliers to add, since if the def is 1 the minion will have problems against pings and such.
there will be a multiplier for even number defences
And odd number defences
As odd numbered defence are more useful the lower they are (aka having 9 def on a minion is less important than having 3)
Then there will be a multiplier for the used mana, another to take into account from when this card can be played during the game (specifically the turn in wich it can be played) and another one to indicate the card advantage given by the card itself.
These are a mere part of the multiplier you’d need to have the exact tn of a card.
I’ll just say this,
i like the idea
but there is no end in this rabbit hole
Oh, sorry about the sarcasm then.
As for the rest, yeah, but it just means that you don’t know whether things (objectively) are You question whether things are, you wonder why they are or even if they can be at all etc. That doesn’t change anything in the idea of objectivity itself.
Everything comes through “subjective” channels, but in order to undermine the idea of objectivity you’d either need to hold no beliefs at all (in other words: not have any thoughts) or be able to go outside your own beliefs (which would allow you to say “truth is what people believe to be true” and genuinely believe it, but which is, by definition, impossible). The chair may be or not be or whatever, but if you believe it “is”, then, in your opinion, it objectively is; someone else may think it is not, but it doesn’t mean that the existence of the chair depends on someone’s opinion. It just means you disagree.
As long as you have opinions, thoughts and beliefs, there are things that you believe “are” - and these things, in your opinion, “objectively” are (this doesn’t necessarily mean they “are” in a materialistic, physical sense - if you believe that there is a such-and-such God, for you, he “objectively” is such-and-such). In other words, you don’t need to “prove” anything to have the idea of objectivity, you just need to think/believe. And that’s why you can’t live without this idea.
(It might help to think of objectivity in reverse, so to say - it’s the category we invented in order to describe what it means to believe/think rather than the other way round. “Objective” means “true”, but it’s always “true in my opinion”, because there’s no escaping your own opinion.)
All good points. I’d also add to that the question of the general’s default attack value. Because the general can take out a 2hp minion with a single hit, in Duelyst difference between 2 and 3 health will not be necessarily equal to a difference between 3 and 4 health (and the difference between 4 and 5 health and so on). But it’s probably more important in early game than later on. Then there are pings… Anyway, my point is: even if you consider the stats (attack/hp) separately, the math is still not that simple and consistent - 1 doesn’t always equal 1.
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I see what you mean.
We probably agree.
Just a question, but I’ll PM you.
If someone whants to help me remake the method, i would appreciate it. After reading, i can admit it has too many flaws, and can be polished.
Why would someone want to use his time in this? Because this game needs help, no game is perfect and there are too many unbalanced cards in duelyst (please admit it).
For examle, i use plasma storm, but i can admit it is OP, even if i love it. (Because many mininions have 3 attack or less).
So, in case anyone wants to help me and this game, please PM me.
And, in the topic of Objective and subjective, it’s not a difficult matter at all, there are many things more diffult to define/discuss than that.
To simplify:
Subjective belongs to opinion, defined by personal experience, feelings and points of view.
Objective belongs to undeniable truth, for example 2+2=4, and so on. It’s almost impossible to have a objective way of thinking, because all persons are afected by experiences, feelings, etc.
Also, is arrogant to think that any opinion can be objective, no mather the case.
Your understanding of subjectivity vs objectivity is almost as flawed as your method, mate. There’s nothing “arrogant” in what I’ve written (you conflate “objective” with “undeniable”, that’s why you’re talking about “objective opinions” and such, which is just straight up silly; every statement is by its very nature “deniable”, including 2+2=4).
In general, right now you come across as both quite arrogant and out of your element. You’re very eager to declare an issue simple, solvable etc. - be it game design or ontology - just to prove time and again, in the very next sentence, that you simply don’t understand the complexity of the subject.
I honestly would help you, OP, because I really appreciate your passion/ambition in this endeavor, but I am ill at the moment and have little energy in general so I will not.
Just wanted you to know that I’m sympathetic towards your cause.
As to your example of undeniable 2+2=4, just to offer more insight, if you’re in a base 3 system (instead of a decimal system) 2+2=11, and you didn’t specify what system you were in (and even if you did, I can just deny something because I feel like it, there is no inescapable law that things have to make sense :p).
I don’t want to pile on, so I’m trying to make this more constructive than just telling you you’re wrong. (not that I’m saying anyone else is doing that)
The videos you linked to don’t explain how to calculate a card’s position relative to the power curve, they just assume you can plot a given card’s power against its cost and compare that to the power of an average card of the same cost.
The “power” of a given move can be stated in terms of “utility” in AI and economics, so if you’re interested in this I recommend you research utility functions and game theory. The raw stat points of a card can be a useful heuristic, especially when you’re actually in a game and have a specific scenario to judge. But for what you’re proposing, I think the best solution is just play testing.
There are basically two types of utility: cardinal and ordinal. You’re method is cardinal, meaning it has a number of utility points. For example, Kindred Hunter has 12 utility points for 3 mana. Ordinal utility is just ranking your options from best to worst.
Ordinal utility is what we’re most concerned with, meaning we want to make the best move available. You’re trying to come up with a cardinal utility function in order to better judge cards. All I can really say to that is “good luck.” And I mean that sincerely. I hope this was helpful to you developing your method, or at least just interesting!
edit: I would also recommend this video by the same people about using abilities and special powers to make it harder to judge a card/character’s power.
In base 10, and numbers are entirely arbitrary anyways.
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I know it’s a bit off-topic but can you share your productions please ? Just curious.
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I actually touched this concept of measuring mana cost a fair while ago, though didn’t get much attention, so i’m surprised to see such an uproar.
If you want to look at my approach @cazadordoblekatana
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