Slight balance suggestion


First I would like to address the card Khanuum-Ka

It seems to me that the problem with this card is that it doesn’t feel fun because Ka does too much with no counterplay. Ka currently does a potential of 3n damage where n is the amount of dervishes Ka uses up. If we nerf the stats of Ka to be 2/1 for 5 mana it would effectively lower the damage Ka can deal by n. While it is true that the Ka can will now die to anything on board, but Ka will deal less damage and Ka is now the equal of Mass Flight for all dervish. The damage that would be dealt would be the same as if every dervish could now fly. Of course some people would point out that with a reassembled oblysk the Fault can reset the board for more damage, but that is more cards needed for the 1 hit combo; bring it to a total of 4(Ka, Fault, oblysk, and Reassemble)

Next card is Rae

Change the cost of Rae to be 1 mana for a 2/1 body like Pax so people can’t trigger the infamous Fault Ka combo.


Make Desolator a 3/1 again but it shuffles itself into your deck so you have to get it again by replace for it again instead of just dropping it out of the action bar the next turn. It should also steal 1 life instead of 2. Stealing 2 life for 4 is the damage difference between generals of 1 life per mana with a free suicide-able body.

Ragnora’s Eggs/Rippers

Make it so the eggs ALWAYS spawns behind him. Celerity should also be removed from the Rippers since it allows for the Fortitude double smack combo, there is no reason rippers should be able to hit twice, the Rippers should be able to move 2 extra units to compensate for the removed Celerity so they can reach the same places, just can’t hit twice.


This thing should get nerfed to be a 4/5 for 5 mana. It is effectively a Rush unit that ignores Provoke but at the cost of 1 less range and cant attack generals. At first I thought this should be lower stated but considering it cant hit generals it should be 4/5 and not 4/7.

Makantor Warbeast

Lower the cost to 5 again but change the stats to 3/1. It should die after dealing 3 damage in a 3x3 area. Now a buff has to be applied to prevent it from dying, but if Fortitude is used, then it would deal 5 damage in a 3x3 area. This allows for more damage if the Warbeast is played with Fortitude and removes the Warbeast if it is not buffed so Warbeast is no longer a spam on field replace/topdeck card with no consequences.

Sunrise Cleric

Lower the stats to 1/2. This thing is so stupid, its a 1 mana make hallowed ground AND get a 1/3 body that generals can’t kill without buffs.

Scroll Bandit

3 mana for 2/3 body. This one feels weird to be honest. On one hand if feels like the steals are all super RNG but on the other hand, getting Inner Focus/Mist Dragon Seal and Scroll Bandit on turn 2 feels super stupid to play against. I think bumping the cost up by 1 makes some of the combos harder to pull off but I gave it an extra damage to compensate.

There are also some other things (Wanderer I’m looking at you) that I think need balancing but I don’t know how to balance them yet so I’ll just leave my thoughts as these for now.


Most of these are all crippling moving things from overturned to unplayable. I am against big nerfs in general but if you are going the route of crippling nerfs you have to hit EVERY single powerful card and drastically change the game.

Cleric and Bandit are actually pretty decent changes but hitting cleric will barely effect the actual issues with healnar.

In the case of your Kha change you now make it have the current problem it has versus attack buffed generals versus now just all generals. Amplifying it’s most problematic feature to even worse then before.

The rest are far to drastic. And other then maybe ripper unwarranted.

The game is designed to have powerful things. While a couple of these deserve it most of these don’t, and you miss other even more important targets.

I think you are missing the mark by a massive margin here. I recently proposed some sweeping changes my self allthough I took the opposite approach of avoiding nerfs as much as possible, instead doing reworks to encourage counterplay. Using the nerf bat can work but you need to make the smallest adjustments possible. A tiny change can have drastic ripples across the game.

Check out my approach here:


well, I like the Ripper-just-moving-2-extra-spaces idea, and I hate Cleric.

The other ideas I’m not too fond of.


I looked at your suggestions and i have some questions.

In your case of Ka, you cripple the card completely. What is the point of removing flying from the card. Players may as well just slam their units into the enemy, at the very least it guarantees that their dervishs die to open up a spot. Why would anyone pay 4 mana to slam a 2/3 into enemies when they can slam 2/2? The removal of flying literally makes the card useless as you cant choose where Ka spawns.

While lowering its attack to 2 is effectivly 1/3 of Ka’s damage lost there is 0 reason to keep the thing at 3 life.

I do agree with your Rae suggestion a 3/1 or a 2/1 for 1 mana are bother nerfs to the fault combo.

Why in the world would you want to buff Desolator. It gives healing, face damage, card advantage and is sacrifice fuel. I would like an explanation to this one as I think this needs a nerf as opposed to a buff.

Making the Rippers able to attack twice still enables the Fortitude double hit combo. Keep the stats at 3/1 but it loses the Celerity. Forcing the eggs to always be behind Rag makes the BBS much more consistent considering how Lyonar’s taunts have to spawn in front of him at all times.

The only real straight nerfs i see are to Ragnora, and Lavaslasher


You really don’t have to beat the dead horse even further. :cry:


Nerfing Sunrise Cleric may seem like a good idea on pa until you realize that doing so will not only affect Healyonar but also Bond Argeon and Strategos Brome.


Bond arg does not necessitate cleric, and strategos is a toxic mechanic which I wouldn’t mind hurting.

Cleric is by far the greatest heal lyo enabler. For inexperienced players, drawing cleric boosts winrate on a level almost on par with wanderer drawing flash. That said, while the body is strong, it is the cost which needs a hit, as it enables strong, uninteractive 4 mana plays in lancer and many 5 mana plays riser or cleric + 2x 2 cost utility casts

Cleric and vitriol are the two worst ziran enablers and thus should be reworked or nerfed.


Cleric is Lyonar’s best 1 drop, and taking the option away would hurt any deck that uses it. Strategos was already nerfed pretty hard, and there’s little need to limit it further. An ideal nerf for Zir’an would target cards like Sunriser or Vitriol to prevent other archetypes from being affected.


Agreed on vitriol, but sunriser is a balanced. Regarding cleric, it is the only card of its cost capable of generating infinite value. No card costing 1 should be able to do that. It is also the best enabler of the heal archetype, guaranteeing at least 1 free proc a turn. Why, I’d even argue it eclipses vitriol in terms of overtuned ability for this reason alone.


Cleric is a strong enabler, and Sunriser is a strong threat. Nerfing the enabler and leaving the threat is just limiting design.


Except sunriser is easily dealt with and requires a ton of set up at low mana to net value.

Also: killing cleric isn’t even huge, as the tile persists after death unless dispelled or tiled over.


The tile is also a weakness as it limits mobility.


slight is such an understatement here lol


Regaurding Kha: Bumping the cost on it down one is a pretty big deal, with good positioning it may be even stronger then before, but now positioning matters. Regardless its ability to repeatedly go face versus generals for insane amounts of near uncounterable burst is why it has become one of the most problematic cards in the game. If my sideways adjustments do not sit well with you, perhaps something as simple as leaving it the same but adding “Khas may only attack a general once per turn.” would do the trick. But your suggestion makes it far far more problematic then it currently is, and it is already a massive issue.

Regarding Rippers:

Regaurding Desolator:

Yes Desolator is very powerful due to the full combination of things it does, but abyss desperately needs this. Power is not an inherently bad thing as the card has counterplay due to being vulnerable to dispel/transforms or getting burned off due to a full hand and even at 3/1 the body is negligible. Unless they spend more then four mana and or multiple cards to get in back in their hand creating negative tempo which while still good is fairly underwhelming.

The persistent effect is what makes it good, but not only do other factions have both superior, reliable, and efficient card advantage options, deso is also just on par with things like trinity and endless hunt. So my bias may be showing a bit here, but not only does abyss deserve deso, but all factions deserve strong staples, and deso is the last staple that is holding the faction together.


Wait, i might have missed something. Did you put endless hunt and desolator in the same league?


Deso is the stronger of the two cards for sure. But in context they are similar, and abyss needs such an effect, however endless hunt there is no way to stop and actually creates positive tempo. But they are similar in principal deso being a stronger but having more counterplay and negative tempo in trade.

Where as trinity is just of a very similar powerlevel used for a similar purpose, despite being pretty different.

Strong with counterplay, in a faction that needs it, is exactly why I think it is ok.


Well, not saying it’s problematic. It’s just so superior to endless hunt that seemed odd to compare them. I mean they share the endless trait, but one is good and the other is bad


I certainly would not call hunt bad, its just that vanar has better options…abyss does not. I chose to just sweep general power level of factions and card advantage under one statement, and then just mention the two closest cards I could think of off hand as examples.


Bumping the cost of Ka down 1 does literally nothing if you remove its flying ability, you are literally paying 4 mana to do the same amount of damage you would deal if you walked your dervishes up to them and smacked them. How does my suggestion make things more problematic? It may as well have the text “destroy all dervishs to deal 2 damage for every dervish destroyed”. Even with a Fault + 1 mana drop, Ka would still only deal 20 damage for 6 mana (plus a set up fault with nothing on it). 20 damage overall(5 dervish from Ka summon and 5 from 1 drop assuming all sands are still up) meaning if they go 20 damage to face they cannot kill the entire board. If going 20 to face is a big problem then we can remove Ka’s flying and give it Celerity so it can move 2 extra spaces. This also makes Provoke minons a valid counter to Ka. If you remove all the mobility of Ka, then it is useless.

Regarding Rippers, I don’t see why removing Celerity is a problem, If 2 spaces were given then the Rippers move to the exact same areas but simply cannot attack twice.

Desolator is too powerful of a card. Just because it belongs to Abyssian Host should not excuse it. Desolator is not even a real tempo lost if used with Maehv. It makes a 4/4 for 5 and hits your opponent for 2 damage. The revive ability makes it too good as it continually stays in the action bar. It really doesn’t take multiple cards to get it back to your hand when you can easily BBS.


You think anything about Kha is ok? But Deso is not? I am throughly confused…20 damage is absolutly not ok, heck even half that is to way much. The entire point of dervishes and Fault is to have strong board presence but have to work for the damage. The mobility and the ability to go face is the problem. Without flying you are paying four mana to give other dervishes rush and or double their movement that is extremely powerful. While also having an extremly hard to kill unit.

Celerity could be even worse as it cold push even more damage and still likely reach anywhere. The whole issue is flying or celerity should not be combined with rush, as rush is already possibly the strongest keyword and is balanced by limited mobility.

Rippers Eggs are high risk high reward. If you want to remove celerity the risk factor has to go and it needs to be summoned as a minon not an egg. Which would be fair but strips their identity. Your moving something from to strong to to weak.

Deso is a joke by comparison and is in the bottom tier faction where as Vet is at the top. Maevs BBs comes with a built in drawback and destroys desos body, that is very fair. And yes the faction that cards are in is one of the biggest factors. Deso is not even to strong, yet you want to make it weak. Your also discounting that it does not revive but costs four mana each time which is massive.

P.S. Sorry for resorting to poor form, I am just getting a bit flustered. And I was already flustered from people resorting to poor form on my thread so it’s getting harder to stay composed.