Duelyst Forums

Scioness Sajj and her State in the Meta

#6

There are several issues with Sajj that hold her back imo.

  1. Her “focus” on Artifacts. Honestly, i can’t even imagine an Artifact/combination of Artifacts that would be good enough to make that archetype a thing. Especially early game playing minions is just far too important, i think i have lost every single match i ever played where i used my p2t1 to equip Ank, even when i killed the enemy minion with it. I was never able to compensate that tempo loss. Relying on Artifacts means to forfeit the board, and Sajj just can’t do that. She doesn’t have the mobility and removal options of Songhai. The only roles Artifacts can play for her are supportive/comboish. The combo part is so inconsistant that it will never be more than a meme and when you run them for support, well that’s fine, but what do you do with the rest of your deck slots? This brings us to the next point.

  2. Pretty much the entire Vetruvian faction is either Artifacts or Obelysk/Dervish related. The Artifact supporting minions are mostly trash and can’t be played effectively. So you are left with Obelysks/Dervishes to fill out the rest of your deck and at this point you will have to ask yourself at some point, why do i not use Zirix when most of my deck is dervish related? I mean it’s not like Zirix can’t make use of Falcius/Hexblade/Ank which are basically the core cards you will use in a Sajj deck. In fact, most of the time, they will be just as effective as with Sajj. There is just no dedicated support for Sajj within the faction, the few cards that are better used with her hardly outweigh the cons of playing her.

For Sajj to find a niche in Vetruvian she would need non dervish related minions and spells that allow her to successfully play a more controlling late game. Get through the early and midgame using efficient minions, her BBS and stuff like Hexblade and then win in the Lategame using winconditions like Spinecleaver. I’ve played a lot of games with a deck like that, trying to make it work but it’s futile. With the tools available right now you just don’t stand a chance in the lategame against other factions, you will just get outvalued. Also, using Sajj BBS to gain Tempo comes at a price, she is using her health for it. Unlike Vaath however, she has no way to regain health. Against fast, aggressive decks you often find yourself at like 12 life by the time you hit 6 or 7 mana. That would be the point where you wanted to bring your lategame Artifacts into play but with 12 life against an aggro deck you don’t want to hit anything with Spinecleaver, just running away is the only thing to do here. Vaath would just Earth Sphere himself out of trouble, the only thing Sajj has are Azure Herald and Healing Mystic, that’s not nearly enough. The next thing missing to support such a playstyle would be a decent removal set but in this regard Vet is just trash. Yes BOA is amazing but that’s it as far as ranged removal goes and mass removal is non existant. Well we have Wasteland Wraith but a mass removal that you opponent can just remove before it goes off is really bad when you want to play a controlling game.

That aside, what options does Vet even have to win lategame? They have great value Minions, Nimbus, Aymara and they have Spinecleaver, that’s it. And again it’s just not nearly enough. Nimbus and Aymara are strong, but they are minions at the end of the day they can be dealt with rather easily. And they are very slow, even if you manage to stabilize the game and play them, your opponent usually has a few turns before they will kill him, time enough to turn the tides sometimes. Spinecleaver does a good job at winning in the lategame, but getting more than one totem out of it in a game with so much burn and ping is really difficult.

TL:DR For Sajj to work it would need more healing for early/midgame, more non dervish related minions, and decent win condition for the late game.

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#7

That trap isnt only specific to reva and kaleos. Vaath is better in a lot of archetypes, faie is better in most archetypes other than some swarm archetypes. Kaleos and sajj suffer the most, Sajj due to not having amazing support and Kaleos only really has one(two if you count jaguar as a whole different archetype) archetype where he is undeniably better than reva, that being midrange kaleos.

edit: To clarify, Im not saying that midrange reva isnt a thing, because it is. Im saying when you build a midrange deck around kaleos’s BBS, you’ll get an actual good deck that wont just be better if you switch kaleos out for reva.

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#8

After a second read, it seems we agree; I only mentioned Kaleos and Reva because that is the most obvious one that I feel no one who’s played this game can really disagree with.

#9

Yes, we definitely agree, I just figured I’d point out that Kaleos isnt the only general that suffers from this. In fact every faction has this problem except for abyssian, but thats because both lilithe’s and cassyva’s BBS already had a lot of support behind them.

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#10

I believe, there are two main ways to upgrade Saji (without specific suggestions):

1)Get some heals.

2)Get some more artifact durability. Really, regalia should have been vetruvian card.

Also, in the original post there is

and no Kaleos in the list)

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#11

There’s alot to unpack about your idea here, but I still think it follows from my early assessment that the devs seemed to have dropped the ball when it comes to identifying Sajj’s identity, kind of like they had with Kara, specifically, since her effect is so… basic, whereas Kaleos had a fairly unique effect from day 1, but just needed some way to channel it into something good (“if you judge a fish by it’s ability to climb a tree…”).

I’d like to say that I don’t think healing is enough to make her worth playing, from a competitive, or even fun, position; I think they need to give a player some reason to want an artifact on someone with her BBS, as opposed to just equipping it on Zirix who has the added bonus of gaining board. Now, how they ultimately do this is what matters.

Thus far, I believe they have made some notable headway, specifically, with Falcius, Zephyr (although people keep sh1tting on this guy, for some reason…), and Wildfire Ankh, to name a few. The mentioned 3 are tools to help her deal with developed/developing boards while still gaining board and taking less damage than having to attack enemy minions without them.

If I were to suggest something to the devs, at this point… Perhaps an artifact that gives +1 attack and both fixes the other equipped artifacts and heals the general once it breaks. Maybe an artifact (or minion) that draws an artifact from your library with mana cost equal to damage dealt by general or just draws any artifact but then discounts the cost proportional to general damage dealt, specifically making it better suited for Sajj instead of Zirix, since he can’t deal as much damage at once, while Sajj’s BBS allows her to take them down in one fell swoop. Those are just suggestions I thought of while riding the tube, so don’t read too much into them.

EDIT: After some more consideration, that second item reducing artifact costs would eve open design space for much more powerful artifacts that have large costs, just because they would still be playable but only if you could cost reduce them.

#12

Unearthed prophecies has made Duelyst a game with 6 playable factions and 11 playable generals. This is no small feat, since it is exceedingly difficult to balance so many characters. However, our little Sajj is still left in the dust, despite being a fan favourite in terms of design and lore. Sajj, along with Argeon, Zirix, and maybe Cassyva, is among the most developed playable characters in Duelyst, yet she is barely playable.

Here are some of my suggestions to buff Sajj support cards:

Psionic Strike
1 mana
Your general deals double damage to minions until the start of your next turn

Explanation

Just a minor upgrade that makes trading into Sajj during your own turn more risky as well. Just a way to make Sajj’s base BBS with no support just a little better.

Zephyr:
3 mana
3/4
Bloodsurge: Your general gains Frenzy until their next attack

Explanation

This makes this card much sturdier and the effect much less situational. Instead of hoping for your opponent to crowd their units around you, you can save your frenzy until there is a good opportunity to use it.

Incenera:
4 mana
4/5
Whenever your general destroys a minion, they gain +1 base movement.

Explanation

Sajj has arguably the most situational bloodbound spell and attached condition out of all the generals. Having to destroy a minion to gain a benefit is really difficult to do, especially considering that most minions need to be dealt with more than once or are best played out of range. Uniquely, the “whenever your general destroy’s something” condition is controlled by your opponent playing things, not your actions. As such, I feel that Sajj’s conditional effects should be slightly more powerful due to how conditional they are. This change makes Incenera have a hugely powerful permanent effect that helps Sajj chase down foes.

Imperial Machinist
3 mana
2/5
Provoke, Opening Gambit: Repair all of your artifacts

Explanation

A nice, simply buff that lets Sajj ease off the aggression in the early game.

Osirix
7 mana
8/6
Flying, Opening Gambit: Your general gains the effects of all friendly artifacts broken this game.

Explanation

Oserix seems like it was designed to give you a huge tempo boost in the lategame by fetching up some artifacts. However, if you are already running an artifact deck, you might over-equip your general and waste some of them. Furthermore, at that point in the game, your general is probably too low on health to take advantage of the artifacts. This version of Oserix works sort of like Alabaster Titan or Sirocco, in that it encourages an inefficient deck (full of artifacts) in exchange for an explosive lategame payoff.

Giving some of the artifacts more attack seems like it could go a long way in improving them, as well as power up Autarch’s gifts.

Spinecleaver
5 mana,
+2 attack, whenever your general destroys a minion, summon a bloodfire totem.

Explanation

Just a minor upgrade to justify the 5 cost and minor use.

Thunderclap
4 mana
+1 attack, whenever your general deals damage, also deal damage to joined enemies.

Explanation

Thunderhorn, Thunderclap. It seems simple enough to stick Thunderhorn’s ability on an artifact. This also gives Sajj some Boardclear potential. Finally, things like Frenzy and probably blast stacks with Thunderhorns ability, triggering it for every damaged enemy, so a combo Sajj could be possible if she had a Thunderhorn artifact.

Fountain of Youth
5 mana
Restore 5 health to your general. Switch your hand with the hand you were dealt at the beginning of the game.

Explanation

Fountain of youth has got to be one of the worst cards in the game. It’s often strictly worse than inner oasis and belongs to a faction with no healing synergy. This proposed change might make the card a bit too powerful, but it has several downsides in bad opening hands, and not letting the player dig deeper in their deck. Furthermore, the player must sacrifice their current hand.

Sand Sister Saon
4 mana
3/4
Whenever your general deals damage, restore that much health to your general.

Explanation

Sajj might be good at trading health for value, but she has no way to heal reliably. Aymara healer is more of a threat than a reliable heal, and the 2 drop healers are not nearly enough to stem the constant abuse on top of needing to trade with the general.

I know that these buffs will probably not happen, but hey; they buffed diamond golem, and these might give an idea of what future Sajj support cards could look like.

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#13

@akurane

Good post - think you’ve pretty much identified all the key issues with Saji. Only thing I’d disagree with is describing her as trash tier. Her artifact archetypes may be too inconsistent, but I’ve been playing an Obelysk/Exhuming sand deck where she’s worked better than Zirix. Basically being able to kill off a key minions on turn 3 or 4 has been more helpful than summoning yet another Dervish.

@excogitator

This would be perfect.

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#14

TBH, I don’t know why everyone is calling her trash tier. She’s fairly solid in an Exhuming Sands deck. Oblivion Sickle lets her set up board states that are equivalent and sometimes better than Zirix’s dervish generation. You strap on an Ankh and it can get really funny from there.

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#15

In my own opinion, I might not consider Sajj trash tier, but I’d say she often gets extremely close to it. Its worth noting that Sajj’s problems don’t only come from her support not helping her enogh or feeling clunky, but rather some other cards commonly used in the meta. In the meta we’re in right now Vanar is one of the strongest factions(Probably THE strongest faction). A commonly run card in vanar is Frigid Corona. This card shuts down Sajj’s strategies so hard it isnt funny. Getting stunned means you suddenly can’t really use any of your artifacts, can’t use your BBS, just about can’t use anything that you’d have in the deck when sajj can’t move or attack. Another example is Grandmaster Zendo, Songhai also happens to be a very powerful faction right now. And somewhat common on the ladder as well. Grandmaster Zendo shuts down Sajj even harder as now you just got stunned and took damage or moved in the wrong direction, away from the action thanks to Zendo. The effect even persists if Zendo isnt dealt with. With these two cards, both being commonly used all around amazing cards, Sajj will need some quite frankly outstanding support to be able to get out of the horrible spot she is in now. So in my opinion, unless both of these factions become less used and not as powerful as they are now, or the Frigid Corona and Grandmaster Zendo get nerfed to the point where they aren’t commonly used in most lists anymore, Sajj might be kept out of the meta just because of the existence of these cards.

So basically, assuming Zendo and Corona won’t be getting nerfs anytime soon as we know that the devs dont like changing cards too much, especially so, considering both cards are quite important to to Vanar and Songhai. This means that in order for Sajj to be good and ladder-competitive, two other factions will have to fall to a somewhat similar state, which isn’t a real solution to the problem as it creates even MORE problems to rise in terms of balancing.(Not to mention, it is quite near impossible at this point for Songhai and Vanar to become factions that aren’t very strong without a big mega-nerf balance patch. I can’t remember the last time when Reva wasn’t clinging on to some top spot in the meta, and Vanar has been top tier for quite a while now thanks to some of their cards)

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#16

So, I think this is all very silly. We’re sinking our teeth into a new set…

Sajj is a reactive General, the meta is molten, if you’re having a hard time Sajj-ing, it’s probably because your deck doesn’t shut down the right kinds of combos- and therefore fails as a control deck. I’m dubious, at the very least about Sajj’s position, because Vetruvian is more… I don’t know. Functional? I don’t feel like playing Vet is playing at the same kind of disadvantage it has been for well over a year. Exhuming Sands function with every Vet archetype, the new counters are hardcore.

So, yeah. I like the state of Vet and Sajj, I think changes made to the game currently are better off gauging the proper amounts of burst damage done by certain types of combos and whether certain types of interactions should occur (card scope/specificity.) Sajj just does what she’s always done… be very good at killing minions and the game has sped up to a point where that’s a good advantage to leverage, say over a token minion, or some sort of buff. Sajj isn’t bad Cassyva anymore- I think that’s a sign of the game moving in the right direction.

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#17

Sajj is hands down the weakest general right now and will probably remain so in the future unless she recieves signifigant artifact support (i.e. ways to protect her artifacts like Regalia does or ways to discount her artifacts). However should such support be given to Sajj it would get abused by OTK Sajj much more than it would be by control Sajj, which is undesirable for obvious reasons.

All Slow artifact decks will never be viable because EMP exists, which unfortunately makes artifact Lyonar and control/Spinecleaver Sajj unplayble.

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#18

One card’s existence cannot ever negate a playstyle.

It can make it harder, sure, but not every deck (nowhere near every deck) runs EMP.

The Sickle helps Sajj (cheap to equip to use with the Tears and free minions when plonking down Falcius and Zephyr), and I run it currently in a Sajj deck and I’m not disappointed.

That said, it’s obviously not for every Sajj deck.

Control Sajj should fit, as free minions really help control the board.

The thing is that to really make Sajj stronger you have to make her BBS stronger, as that’s the only thing except looks that defines her.

Falcius and Zephyr are good examples, they needn’t be artifacts.

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#19

EMP is a 7 mana card and a double edged sword since it’s effecting both players. Unless Sajj gets October Reva levels of dominance it will never see enough play to make something unviable. Hell even if it was played in every deck it wouldn’t make a control Artifact deck unviable because it’s effect can easily be limited by thoughtful play.

#20

I honestly think that Sajj is the only general that needs a rework. I mean removing minions with your general should be the last option you think about, since you loose when your general dies. Her BBS is too depending on things like Falcius or blindscorch.
I suggest a change like: Minions won’t counterattack your general this turn. It protects artifacts and it’s more flexible in usage. In addition there should be more spells that buff your generals for one attack (for Vetruvian obviously). Just a raw idea of course

#21

Honestly, I think that the BBS of Sajj is strong. It allows her to remove minions from the board in exchange of her health and Falcius + BBS is 8 damage without taking damage back, which is very powerful.

To me, the main problem of Sajj is that there is no good way to regain the health she traded when removing a minion. Healing spells or damage reduction effects for Vetruvians would help in this respect.

Other than that, the two suggestions in the original post are very good. More synergy with the BBS and more low-cost artifacts would definitely help developing a control build, which is where you really want to use Sajj. Zephir is an awesome card for Sajj, but he dies to easily: giving him 4 health would help, as suggested in another post.

#22

@Aeruniel and @baharoth,
EMP is indeed rarely used at the moment, but that is easily explained by the fact that everybody is trying to have fun with the cards that UP brought. Once the meta settles down it will be a 2 or 3 of in most decks just like during the previous meta when even Vaath and Zir’an ran it at S-Rank/Diamond.

It is possible to make Sajj better, but it will be very hard to make her viable without making her broken. The best solution would probably be to buff her BBS so it is no longer a poor man’s Overload.

#23

Guess we are playing different games. Even in the prime of the Arcanyst meta i haven’t seen many EMPs and the few i saw were in Golem Decks. Certainly not in Vaath/Zir’an. This card is far too situational to ever become “Meta”. It’s a tech card by nature.

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#24

A game I had today against Zir’an.

Screen.png1281×687 994 KB

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#25

Ooooh… gimme dat emp

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