Rationale for Siphon Energy Nerf?


#1

I know I am probably beating a long dead horse but I have not really seen any decent rationale for the nerf. I was hoping that the devs nerfed it to increase design space but nothing in this recent expansion has helped aid Vetruvian in removing ranged threats.

A kelaino in the back is quite often GG for vetruvian because even dune caster + rashas is 4 damage and is limited in reach.


#2

IIRC CPG’s explanation is that the nerf is to “better suit the faction’s theme”.
I don’t understand that either; I think the Siphon Energy nerf is unnecessary.


#3

I didn’t like Siphon Energy, but it made more sense to complain about it when we drew 2 cards each turn. For 0 mana you could dispel any minion anywhere, it gives huge tempo swings if your opponent played ability-based minions, this would affect how other players built their decks.

Why now? It could be because of the grandmasters, and bloodsurge minions, they wanted the minions to be good tactical choices. Ex. Vetruvians Grandmaster would be countered by it.

The change made it like Entropic Decay, Vetruvian has removal targeting nearby minions, a bit like Magmars Plasma and Unnatural which target low attack minions.

Bloodborne offered the Vetruvian General extra movement and attack types, now the general is a more instrumental part of Vetruvian’s kit.

Sadly the Siphon rework is really weak. Vetruvian does seem to have a problem with enemies out of reach at the moment, which can be okay if it is properly balanced. But Rasha’s Curse can attack 6 tiles away from the general, distance isn’t usually a problem.


#4

It was an extremely versatile answer card which costed no mana to use. That’s basically it. Now whether you agree or not with the nerf and the way it was implemented considering the context and the current state of the faction is a whole another topic.


#5

The card itself isn’t the problem, the real deal with this card is that your general can’t be anywere, and can’t be always in the middle of the enemy’s minions (let’s say you can reach kelaino thanks to incinera or tracer, you dispel it, your general now it’s just in the middle of a whritling swarm with a 2/5 body on his face, and you spent 4 mana to position a body where you doesn’t need it, and you can’t afford to ignore her because if you reposition your general to be far away from the swarm you’ll probably will not reach kelaino during the rest of the game).

Cards like ephimeral shroud are just stronger, you trade the zero cost to get one tile more range, a 1/1 body and the possibility to dispel backline cards (like kelaino or 4winds magi) nearby any of your units in board, be it general, rasha’s dervishes etc.

I don’t want to say siphon energy needs a rework “because ephimeral is stronger”, but as it is now it’s just a very-easy-to-play-around card or “a card that it’s not worth to play”.


#6

Siphon Energy – Text changed to “Dispel an enemy minion nearby your General.”

Vetruvian has some of the most powerful tools in the game. The ability to easily neutralize opposing threats regardless of their position on the board is an area where the faction could stand a slight adjustment. We think forcing Vetruvian to care more about positioning to dispel enemies is such an adjustment.


#7

I think the nerf is fine, the problem is that óther factions haven’t gotten similar nerfs. Cards like Incinera should become Vet’s bread and butter to manage their faction weakness, but I have trouble pinpointing similar weaknesses in other factions. Lyonar has its reliance (mostly) on getting an maintaining a board, but what about the others?j


#8

Lilith dies to AoE a lot :confused:


#9

I’ll bandy around the theory I’ve had for a while:

The word Vetruvian comes from the Vitruvian man by Davinci. It was supposed to represent the ideal form of man. (Also Vitruvius, the architect). The ideal man in Davinci’s time was a man who knew everything, could do everything himself (hence the term: Renaissance man).

Now what does all this bullshit have to do with Duelyst? The idea of the Vetruvian faction is (in my mind) tied with the concept of the Renaissance man. There are very few ‘real’/non-construct units in Vetruvian, giving credence to the idea of a one-man army with a craftsman that made his army. In essence, the army is a part of himself. More recent Vetruvian units have also gotten abilities that make the general do something (give them frenzy, make them move more, make them invulnerable,…). There’s also Sajj who has a BBS that’s entirely focused on ‘improvement’ of the self and the focus of the faction on Artefacts.

The intent is clear, the Vetruvian faction is intended to focus on the general and center their power there. So the reason why Entropic Decay, Dominate will and, now, Siphon Energy require the general to be near seems obvious from a thematic stand-point. Because it needs to seem as if the General is doing the work. It’s the generals that employ the spells and they are/should be the centerpiece of the faction. That is, what I think they’re trying to do.

A better example might be to consider Vetruvian the ‘Undead’ faction. A lot of disposable units with a lot of power invested in the Necromancer/Vampire Lord/Tomb King/Necron Lord/Sauron/… . (and no Abyssian isn’t the undead faction, they’re the ‘Demonic/Corruption/Chaos’ faction.)

That’s why I think the change was made this way and why It’s not likely to change back. What could be a nice addition to the faction however is a unit that makes Obelysks count as ‘around the general’. Sort of extending the General’s willpower.

Does any of this make sense?


#10

The problem isn’t the nerf the nerf was fine.The problem is that Vet have no clean solution for range minions.Yes Vet is suppose to be the faction with a range weakness but weakness doesn’t mean you can’t have way to handle this stuff.

My solution make the removal not efficient

5 mana spell

Sands of time -completely erase any minion.

Yes that is strong but it is only thing you can do that turn.Vet already struggle to keep a board

Or

1 mana

Whirlpool -destroy a minion in a sand trap

Once again not efficient you need a two card combo and one card useless without other one.

The siphon nerf was justified and even I get the why to clarify a faction weakness.Okay you wanted Vet players to have to pay attention positioning and stay close to other general to be effective BUT you left vet without away to deal with range cleanly that doesn’t cost 8 mana.


#11

I dont often play Vet, but when I do backline minions often cost me the game. Its true Siphon needed a nerf, but with no replacement its quite bad for the overall faction health. Something to extend general spell range or straight up removal (more costly of course) is definitely in order. Stone of Spears and Incinera help, but they are not elegant solutions for this specific problem at all. I see them as useful for other reasons in each general archetype, but not for out of reach threats.

One card I never understood was corpse combustion. Cant we rework that to either be something like:

Select friendly minion. When it dies, deal 3 damage to enemies around it.

Or if thats too strong, maybe something like:

Deal 4 damage to selected minion and 2 damage to your general.

The first version feels more flavorful for the name of the card, but the second feels more flavorful for the faction. I would see the second form being cheaper than the current 5 cores, maybe 3 or 4. The first iteration could stay at 5 IMO. Its somewhat situational but strong.


#12

I can understand cp wanting to limit zero cost cards but then increase its energy requirement. Vet has ONE zero cost card… THEY DON’T NEED IT. I was going to make a longer post but it’s simple cp made a huge mistake. Every faction needs a ranged removal in a game like this.


#13

Meme it and post it in the meme thread.


#14

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