Question about Abyssian?


#1

I just return to Duelyst after almost a year of hiatus, the last month i actually play was the release of Keeper of the Vale. What is the spell that summon 4/4 on every Shadow Creep, cause I can’t find it anywhere?


#2

Its not a spell, its grandmaster variax :slight_smile:

well, its kinda a spell, he changes the bbs to that


#3

Ok, so basically similar to Justicar Trueheart in HS then?


#4

Since you last played, Duelyst introduced Bloodborn Spells, which are special abilities unique to each general. A new Abyssian card, Grandmaster Variax, alters Cassyva’s Bloodborn spell so that it summons a 4/4 on every friendly unoccupied shadow creep tile.

A lot has happened since you last played, but hopefully this helps clear things up.


#5

Yup same as Justicar Trueheart, except it is an Abyssian class card so no other factions get to have fun ;(

Looking forward to other factions getting similar cards in the future.


#6

Sortof. It isn’t a strict upgrade like Justicar. Sometimes, having a BBS that costs 3 actually makes your turns worse, even when you’re pumping out 5/5s or turning Shadow Creep tiles into 4/4s. The optimal way to play it, tends to involve quite a bit of setup, and then use Variax to “switch gears”.

For example, in my laddering Lillithe deck, t3 or 4 Variax via Darkfire Sacrifice is something of a desperation play- unless I manage to establish and proc a Bloodmoon Priestess. Because at that point, there is sufficient tension between the wraithlings that can potentially become 5/5s, and the 7/7 developed to force an answer to the priestess, the wratihlings or the Variax from my opposition. A turn 6/7 Variax, is often more optimal with DFS because I can follow it up with the 5/5s. But that very rarely takes over game or supplies sufficient board domination. But, it does onlock the BBS>Crypto>BBS turn, which generates 4 5/5s and a 2/2, giving some amount of board control. That said, neither Lillithe’s or Cass’s Variax modes race out Burn Vaath, Burn Faie. or outvalue some of the stronger control variants, so if you’re building to using the Variax mode as your win condition, make the deck in such a way that flipping the switch puts you all-in in a way you can support.


#7

Would you mind sharing a deck list that out-values Lilith’s awesome BBS?

If we think of her BBS as an actual card, it reads: “3 Mana, spawn two 5/5 near your General, draw a card”. And she is guaranteed to draw it every (other round). Which spell in the game gives more value than that?


#8

In my experience, making 5/5s doesn’t outpace Jax Overdrive,. Razorback Wells, Spinecleaver procs or other huge setups. The first time I encountered an opponent playing Variax, I setoff a series of healing procs with a Sunforge Lancer down, and hit them in the face for 16. Pandora and Kron can be positioned, even if their spawns cannot. The 5/5s can be dispelled into 1/1s, creating large tempo less.

Basically, the inability to position the 5/5s makes them unreliable for several turns without prior setup via Priestess or Wraithling Swarm. The big issue with outvaluing other setups that I’ve found with Lillithe comes from the 10 mana cost of getting to use the “Awesome BBS”, Sacrifice adds card intensiveness to the card resource in lieu of mana resources, but often I have to take entire turns to use Rite, which chokes for further development or disruptive tools in the same turn. There really isn’t a way around that either, Spelljammer puts you further behind on making Variax a strong check play, even though it develops your board- and is at times simply inefficient for how quickly Cryptographers, Gloomchasers, and Lures have to be used for tempo plays. So, in a value war, going off with Variax takes a great deal longer than just slamming the card, and spamming the BBS immediately (something that you can’t reliably do before 8 mana,) and even then- the positioning, card intensiveness, and need for support like Rite puts you miles behind anything packing Trinity Oath, Divine Spark, Heaven’s Eclipse, Lantern Fox, L’Kian (in some factions,) and Tec Spikes (the cancer itself), and only slightly faster and more reliable than Koan of Horns.

:stuck_out_tongue: Maybe that doesn’t answer it as well as an actual decklist, but I’m not confident in my capacity as a deckbuilder. But my short experience piloting Lillithe has led me to see massive cracks in the Furious Wraithling engine. I think that if the engine comes to a level of domination, the culprit is more likely to be BMP than Variax, since it’s the most potent generator of 1/1s to launch as 5/5s.


#9

Ah. Okay. So we just have a different understanding of the term “value”. All of what you described isn’t value to me, it’s tempo/aggression. And it boils down to “You can kill the Variax player before he takes over the game” and not “You can sit back and starve out the Variax player by going for value trades/plays yourself”.

Question answered. In a way. Thanks.


#10

Well, contextually to Duelyst, “value” is based on a scale of 3/4 turns because the number of “Wraths” and removal is so minimal. When you describe “value” in the terminal sense of a cardgame, it becomes sortof irrelevant. I certainly wouldn’t describe Trinity Oath, Whispers or Spinecleaver as “tempo” or “aggression”. The game doesn’t possess the same potential for building value entropy as MtG. Even a superb value engine like Four Winds has an element of tempo to it- and outpaces the “awesome BBS” significantly.

Hope that clarified my point :smiley:


#11

A philosophical question.

I don’t even know what that means.

Me neither, but the situations you described are what I would put into the general category of “Plays” (and not concepts) and in that category I’d file them primarily under “Tempo plays”. Of course they generate value at the same time, but if every play that generates some sort of value automatically is a value play, than that stretches the term value so thin that it loses its meaning (at least to me).

No, when I speak of Value (with a capital V) I speak of an abstract concept that is measured in cards and which results in card advtange. A play that generates value is a play that generated real (or at least virtual) cards.

Trinity Oath is a great value play because it turns a single card and a little Mana into three cards and a little life. And by that you get ahead by two cards in terms of the 1-for-1 trades that represent the base line of a match.

But the situations you described are mostly “and then you play XY and kill the opposing General”. That’s not value. That’s just killing people.

Value (at least to me) is when a card lets you to build up card advantage by allowing you plays that net you more cards (real or virtual) than your opponent.

That’s why I was asking about decks (or cards in general) that out-value someone who invests zero cards to get two 5/5s.


#12

Have you played Magic for a significant amount of time? I don’t mean this to sound patronizing or condescending, as this is a friendly philosophical discussion- so I hope that the tone given to what is about to be said comes as kind, and one player speaking to a peer.

“Value”, tends to either denote the act of using your own resources to improve your own resources, or to consume a greater deal of your opponent’s resources (life, cards, positioning etc) than that spent- it isn’t disjoint from tempo- especially in context to Duelyst where “spells with legs” and “pressure plays” are so common. Duelyst specifically combines the positioning critical thinking games of Advance Wars or Fire Emblem with the mechanisms of MtG- expanded by the replace step. The Razorback Well combo often trades for an extreme amount of the opponent’s resources, usually consuming multiple units deployed at the expense of an entire card, or trading more than 5 general life per card spent. The combo isn’t inherently aggressive, but is commonly played so (often even, to the Gravity Well player’s detriment, where a value play would serve them far better.)

Value is on a scale larger than CA, but uses CA (2f1 plays) as a cornerstone. The plays I’ve mentioned all cost fewer cards than they often trade for, and the pressure is “free”. Whether you kill the opposing general in the same turn or not is irrelevant, since the goal of these strategies often involves buying turns of time to setup value plays.

I’m not really sure the community has put forth the effort of creating control decks that are obvious to our groupthink, but tools like Ancient Grove, Spinecleaver, Pandora, Sunforge Lancer, etc generate often more stable value, while being far less resource intensive (allowing for usage of other tools simultaneously.) Viewing the BBS in a vacuum as “cardless 2 5/5s”, would hurtfully impact any sort of deckbuilding with it you may do- because it isn’t. It’s possibly the most resource intensive value engine currently in the game, and while the value might appear to be greater than that of other sources, it gets disrupted and pushed back just as easily as any other, at a greater loss of resources. Variax decks are not Fatigue Warrior- the entropy (value, wherein an infinite number of turns is considered) of developing 5/5s has to be supported to avoid being excessively slow and vulnerable.


#13

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