Strategos has been fair since they first nerfed him, viable yet not OPed. I actually would prefer other Mythrons to be of a similar power level as him but that is unlikely to happen since that would require buffing 5 Mythrons (1 of which was recently nerfed) and slightly nerfing Mythron Wanderer (there is no need to kill him, he just needs a little nerf to be fine).
If you are having trouble beating Strategos and Wanderer as Vet I would recommend trying a good Fault + Kha deck. I climbed to S this season with Fault Sajj and I had a good winrate against both of those Mythron decks.
While I’m not playing nearly enough to know about the current balance of the Trial&Destinies cards, I have the feeling that nerfing or buffing them is a difficult act as they are currently worded.
Personally from a design standpoint, I would have had the Destines not last forever, but go live for only a certain amount of turns. This added duration variable would have allowed a finer tuning of their respective strength, but also of their tempo and priority vs each other possible deck.
Then CPG could introduce early or mid-game trials, that might integrate into existing deck templates branching into various traditional late-game win conditions? Just a shower thought.
I just don’t find fair how it’s trial is structured. Once the Mythrons are down on board we know it’s going to be really hard, but at least the others (except Wanderer) have a harder or longer time to be cast. I still believe that in Strategos the minions should be summoned only by the action bar.
I never said this.
Jeez don’t be so dramatic, the suggestions I made wouldn’t kill the trial, would just make it less brain dead to play. Strategos is: let me play bunch of shit regardless the match-up until I cast Strategos. I don’t find fair the use of cards that spawn multiple minions to help achieving the Trial, especially considering that they don’t need to be Lyonar.
And the bad thing is that in the limited amount of time you have before Strategos comes there won’t be many chances to be lethal AND being able to keep the board clean.
Strategos may come down at 7 but it’s not different than Wanderer in terms of snowball. On the rest I clearly agree.
I don’t know if you made a typo, but I clearly said that “the nerf on Zyx made it less rampaging, NOT unplayable”, or in other words: Zyx is slower but still playable. So you may wanna take that back and/or explain yourself better.
I also never said that nerfs are meant to make things unplayable, that’s your very free interpretation on something that meant visibly something different.
Please let’s not go there. I don’t like this tone and way of reasoning, especially from somebody that earlier sustained that Dreamshaper is OP. Also you said about Sandswirls and Falcius that they were OP, and I agreed with you that a little tweak could have been made, and that’s what I call for. I made clear suggestions, why don’t you comment on those instead of making it a matter of Faction/ rock-scissor-paper?
Exatly!! That’s why a tweak could be done on the other two Mythrons. I see it more possible rather then empowering the others. Nobody here wants to kill the Mythrons, Strategos, and Wanderer, I just say that they could STILL use some little modification in their trial/stats.
Thanks for the Vet oriented tips btw, I actually used to play that combo, just not with Sajj, but I was unlucky with Strategos and Wanderer …
Yeah for example! The trials should be challenging to achieve, rewarding but still allow the game. In that sense the Vanar, SongHai, Magmar, Abyssian and Vetruvian’s Trials are hard or conditional to achieve and still allow to play when the Destiny hits, but I don’t see the same balance with the Lyonar and Neutral’s ones.
I still think Dreamshaper is OP but I think overpower thing should exist in the game which means I am not bias strong things existing other factions and you can find far better players than me say Dreamshaper is OP. You can dislike the tone I don’t care but it is relevant when player who mainly plays a certain faction complains about something that is obvious weakness of the faction. If a Magmar mains complains about Artifact hai I will tell them to shut up because strength of the deck is far different for other factions.
Strategos is a just strong deck now not brokenly strong like was in the beginning and since the patch and return of Skorn to any faction who has a problem with aoe.The deck has gotten worse.The deck has gotten nerf with amount of minions to complete. The deck has gotten one the main cards played nerf plays and the minion that single handle made Jaxi Trusight disappear from the meta is back in the game. So once again it is relevant to mention with CPG doing stuff has that clearly made the deck fair to mention that person complaining against the deck is playing a faction that needs to tech heavy to beat Strategos.
I didn’t start with an aggressive tone with you, so you don’t need to use that tone with me, as simple as that .
It’s not just a matter of weakness of the faction, that would be too simple, especially since there are players who sustain that they play Vet and don’t have problems with Strategos or Wanderer. Even I won against Wanderer decks like Ragnora’s or Reva and even with Strategos, but I still believe they could be reworked a little, for the good of the game, not me or Vet in general.
There was no aggressive tone,When a person complains about something that is generally not seen as that strong I check to see what they are playing and about 90% of the time the person is playing a general or faction that is weak to the issue. If person is playing faction without obvious good aoe it is fair to think they have higher opinion of deck than what most other people will have.
If you notice I am not saying about anything about Wanderer ,Wanderer is one of the universal most played decks and had great tournament and ladder success. The issue is you keep trying to group Wanderer and Strategos together. They are not same thing in fact in month power ranking watch how much Strategos drops. Strategos has gone from bonkers to probably the best example of what a mythron in the game should be,good enough to played, is completed at a good rate and be strong but not overpowered.
@kirabi : the fact that you swear and you made a statement with a sequence of “I make myself questions and answer myself” sentences, like you had it all figured out, is arrogant and pretentious, so: aggressive, unnecessary considering the tone I had.
I group the two Mythrons only because I think they’re OP and Wanderer is too meta defining: a little adjustment would keep them viable and strong, making the game healthier.
I can find common ground recognizing that as main Vet I especially find bad match-ups with Strategos, but the deck is not played as much not just because of Zyx singularly, the meta now is like a war zone due to the patch, and a lot of other decks are less played and as many “dead” archetypes came back.
Another alternative could be that the minions have to be played, cast, instead of summoned, making all minions entering the game as single units and requiring as viable condition a low cost and a high rate of draw, even lowering the required amount of minions played.
If the cards you mentioned would become garbage in the deck would just mean find other solution to play Strategos. Most Songhai and Vanar don’t even play their Mythron, which sucks.
If summoning a minion means make it appear on board no matter how, playing it, in terms of playing a minion card, would mean considering the summoning of the single minion, without counting those coming from its effect. This would make stuff like Jax and Zyx useless, but would allow two things: first makes the general to concentrate on casting cheap minions as quick as possible with more reasoned positioning and choice, focusing on quick card draw, and second making the rampage more controlled and less snowball. This could go along with a rework on the amount of minion cast, decreasing it, as now it’s high because are allowed cards like Jax that do half of the job in one turn, allowing to put many snowball threats on board at the same time.
But that was kind of my point. If those minions summoned by effects don’t progress the Trial, there’s no incentive in playing them at all. Also, I don’t understand what you mean when you said such a change will make players focus on positioning, because I don’t see a particular correlation.
I stand corrected; even if such a nerf was made, the general deck structure of Strategos would not change very drastically. Jaxi and Jax Truesight will be taken out, and that would be it. However, that change alone will have a profound impact, and Strategos decks, the only top-tier Lyonar deck at the moment, will vanish from the meta for sure.
The positioning is just a detail of what I said, so don’t take it as the core of my argument, in the bigger picture the point is to not encourage summoning for it’s quantity value thanks to stuff like Zyx/Jax, but make players play decks with more single unit value like Shiro and the golems, or Rock Pulverizer, Vale Hunter, Mana Forger, Azure Horn, making each of those minion count by their specific singular value. This would slow down the process but along with a decrease on the minions required to be played the deck would still be Viable.
EDIT after your second post: maybe Strategos should be meant to reinforce the regular swarm archetype. I add to this, that another solution could be to allow the minions to be cast to have 1 or 2 attack instead of just 1. Don’t know man, whatever decrease the rampage-snowball factor basically .
Maybe, but even conventional Swarm decks don’t run Rock Pulverizer or Vale Hunter, but cards like Zyx, Dreamgazer, Cleric, Celebrant, and the usual roster. Also, Truesight is already an absolute must for Strategos decks, and the whole archetype would crumble without it.
I personally love Strategos as a card. The Promote mechanic is just so creative, and the fact that it’s called a promotion and not just a transformation only makes it even more interesting. It would be quite the loss to see if the card gets nerfed yet again.
If it had to be nerfed, I would change the Trial to something like this:
Summon 12 minions with 1 or less Attack, including three Crestfallen.
As Truesight usually come in around T3 or T4, Strategos will usually drop by at T5 or later. That isn’t enough time to play Brome’s BBS three times for three Crestfallen. Such a change will force Strategos decks to diversify their options into cards like Cryptographer, Mentor, and most particularly, Legion. Overall, the deck will decrease in consistency, but will still retain its fundamentals.
This is also a good possible solution, would slow the trial conditioning it to the summoning of some specific cards.
Surely making Truesight not useful for Strategos would be a big hit, but I think we can agree that with the right changes, the Trial conditions can still be met and the archetype can still live and prosper. I don’t think is right that Truesight gives such a buff to the Trial/deck and even gets promoted to stuff like Peacekeeper, it’s insane to me…
Btw I’m also a fan of the Promote element, I think is an interesting use of terms in the game and I wish to see more!
I never said that you said that wanderer needs a nerf because it is t1 @atheistmantis I said that it doesnt need a nerf even if it is t1.
Making destiny TEMPORARY?!? That would undermine the total effect of destiny and it’s design. Also, strategos may not take that much skill to play, but that is just the design behind the card. Nerfing it farther WOULD kill it. Rn it is viable but not anywhere near op. It is barely out of being a niche and meme. This is like saying “nerf midrange vaath because it takes no skill to play” very unfair.
As for wanderer, just because it can come down consistently on t5 and occasionally on t2 when they highroll doesnt mean its too op. Its consistency is part of the card. While I agree the power levels of other mythrons are nowhere near wanderer, that just means they need a buff, not that wanderer needs a nerf. Also all of the changes suggested would just kill wanderer or strategos. Strategos will dies from any change, and wanderer is fine but not too strong, but your suggested changes are way too hard hitting. The MOST wanderer could deserve is a stat change. Thats it.
Ive said everything I really need to, and it feels like you dont adress my points but rather take two specific parts of my entire post and say “I never said this” or “no need to take this tone”
If you want me to keep taking you seriously and having my respect then you actually have to look over my opinions and respond.
In your last post you wrote a long message where you touched many points, among which there were things that didn’t need to be discussed either because I agree on them or because are considerations that didn’t require deeper discussion.
Also I don’t like when replies are written with an edgy or smart ass tone (I try to ignore those that do it deliberately), but I’ll come to that later, and that’s why I picked those points in that way.
I like to think that there has been some misunderstanding, so I’ll make it up here:
… Alright… I’m not a promoter of making the Destiny temporary, somebody brought it up if I remember correctly, and I said it that could be some kind of solution, but this is about the whole concept of Trial/Destiny, and it’s not what we’re talking about atm. Among all the possibilities making the effect temporary is not my favourite solution, for the record.
Niche perhaps, but far from meme, you can still encounter it in Ladder and it’s still a very threatening deck even after nerfing Zyx.
The parallelism you made with Vaath’s: in this case you made a comparison putting on the same level a complaint about a whole deck archetype with the effect of a single card (Strategos) and I don’t see the point.
Yeah it’s a highroll, as you say, to cast it t2, yet it’s a condition that happens incredibly often, it’s not a Grimes into Worldcore Golem thing, and brings the match-up to a very accented disparity, which is unfair. When you say “its consistency is part of the card” I don’t understand what means.
My idea is: nerf Strategos and Wanderer and leave the other mythrons as they are: on this philosophical issue we just have to disagree, but that’s why I made a pool about it.
Among the changes I proposed there’s also one you proposed yourself in the end of your reply (changing the stats). I think your judgement on my suggestions is a bit cut with an axe, as I proposed many things, and I can make you more example now:
requring the deck to run at least n° artifacts and n° spell
requiring to run at least 1 minion per all costs from 1 to 9 (at least a 5 mana one, a 6, a 3, etc)
having it cast in the exact centre of the board or in the edge of your own side
and so on…
There’s plenty of possibilities, mine are suggestions, but it’s alright if you just don’t like any of my ideas, your opinion is just radically different from mine.
I hope I answered more completely now, and let me say that the same goes to you: if you want my respect be polite when answering, don’t answer me like you need to school anybody, or like I said some kind of unspeakable wrong thing, you can have your opinion and argue with it calmly and without arrogance.
Peace .
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