Duelyst Forums

Poll+discussion: Wanderer and Strategos nerf

#1

Hello! The expansion has been around for some time, the patch has brought back into business cards and archetypes and there’s confusion in the meta.
I feel though, that it’s safe to make some consideration on two specific cards that are still very present in the meta: Mythron Wanderer and Grand Strategos.
In my opinion these are cards that still feel unbalanced and overpowered, as they provide too much advantage to the players that cast them.
What’s your opinion on the matter? Should the stats, the costs, the Trial conditions be changed?
Or Is it just something wrong about the whole Trial concept, which could be reviewed?

For example I suggest that Wanderer could have less stats, require a specific amount of all card types (minions, spells, artifacts), and/or a Trial more similar to Hideatsu’s, based on the cards’ cost.

Strategos for example could require the minions to be summoned from the action bar, be only Lyonar, promote only Lyonar minions, promote them keeping the damage dealt, and/or transforming them only into specific cards.

  • Mythron Wanderer and Grand Strategos SHOULD be nerfed
  • Mythron Wanderer and Grand Strategos DON’T NEED to be nerfed
  • Only Mythron Wanderer should be nerfed
  • Only Grand Strategos should be nerfed
  • There’s something wrong with the WHOLE MYTHRON CONCEPT, should be reworked

0 voters

1 Like
#2

Either they need to be nerfed or the others need to be rebalanced… it’s skewed pretty hard…

#3

That’s why I also put the option of rework the whole concept, although I believe the Mythron cards I specifically addressed are still in need for a nerf.
Personally don’t want to see everybody playing their faction’s Mythron, nor feel like I have to play them myself in order to be competitive, which I’m afraid would be the consequence of making the other Mythron stronger, or as OP as Strategos and Wanderer.

#4

I actually think wanderer is good for the game

I never mind one deck metas as long as the one deck is fair. Wanderer is inherently fair.

Also, wanderer decks are insanely customizable and reflective of their creators.

Let’s also not ignore the fact that I’ve won games off of Dustwailer. Wanderer causes underplayed cards to see play.

The deck is far from unbeatable.

7 Likes
#5

You played Grand Strategos after its nerf and Zyx nerf and still feels overpowered? Hmmm

#6

Both are fair and balenced but feel unfair to lose to as Wanderer is a tempo based highroll deck and Strategetos is a Zoo based highroll deck.

2 Likes
#7

I’m still compiling data on Wanderer decks and my matchups against them, but in twenty seven (27) games against Wanderer decks over the past week with a variety of matchups, I have only won TWO (2) of them.

I’m going to have graphics and stuff to go along with it, and a much wider dataset, but from the outset it’s pretty clear that there’s at least a bit of a skew.

Edit: This will also, of course, need to be compared to the deck’s overall win/loss ratio, which I will include as well.

1 Like
#8

Maybe its only because you are a scrublordscrub, Thong Bonerstorm.

Jokes aside, everyone has different experiences with different decks, but if I assume you are not misplaying and DO understand how to play against wanderers, I agree that is incredible bad luck.
I have played against wanderer about 50-65 something times and lost to it very rarely. About 10-14 times if my memory is correct. Wanderer is just about stealing board from the opponent, making sure they cant develop board and holding removal. It also loses hard against multiple archetypes, and beats some others, just like any deck. If your deck is a midrange deck it has a very difficult time against wanderers, while playing as an aggro deck of any faction has a much higher chance against them. Etc.

2 Likes
#9

The more I play Duelyst, the more I grew fond of Highlander decks. They’re so creative, and every match against them is different. I myself don’t lose to Wanderer as frequently, so I don’t feel an immediate need for a nerf at the moment. If any nerf is to be done, only a stat nerf would be tolerable.

As for Strategos, we’re kind of beating a dead horse here. Strategos was directly nerfed last patch and then was indirectly nerfed again with the Zyx nerf. Strategos is fine, and instead of thinking of ways to nerf it even further, we should learn to play around it. Believe me, I’ve had plenty of matches I managed to overwhelm the opponent before Strategos even got to hit the board.

4 Likes
#10

Why nerf those? They’re all fair. Only nerf I could see is MAYBE restricting wanderer buff to minions summoned from action bar (eggs + seekers are too proactive for their mana cost and restrict any midrange not called magmar). The true degeneracy of this meta is fault + rae (rae in general). Kha breaks that combo in half, turning it from the massive value play it always was to an outright board clear / lethal combo every turn.

7 Likes
#11

I agree with this assessment. I think that the issue is that almost everything I play is midrange, combo oriented, or stupid. I don’t imagine that wanderer plays well into burn, swarm, or dervishes.

1 Like
#12

Can confirm. Artifact hai tears though wanderer like wet paper, though that’s not a deck I’d be especially fond of being prevalent on ladder, as they’re particularly high-roll dependent and can ream just about anything even if properly teched for.

3 Likes
#13

Honestly wanderer is really fair.
Loses hard to mantra, aggro of any kind, wizard horn, control cyph, combo in general, etc.

Sure it may feel overbearing at times, but that is mainly due to its style of overrunning and steamrolling you with tempo until you die.

And depending on the nature of the combo @scrublordscrub a combo list can and generally does feast upon wanderers due to their lack of healing and, if sajj or artihai combos, pings.

2 Likes
#14

The thing I actually appreciate from Wanderer is that has made unplayed cards playable, although nobody really play shitty cards just because it’s Highlander.
About the fairness I disagree.
The stats of minions in Duelyst are always the subject of discussion because they are a defining element of the value of the card: if a card has too much health or attack is overpowered, and or its ability justify their stats. For example EMP was nerfed to 7/7 because it’s stats were too high for a 7 mana minion with basically no drawback.
Now take wanderer: a 6/6 that buffs in an un-dispellable way all the minions, including itself.
The ability itself would be fine, and I think of Feralu that buffs all tribes for example, but in this case there’s no answer and you automatically play cards with a fixed +1/+1.
This could still be fair, but we are talking about a minion that has as trial condition an automatic one. And what about when it’s played with Flash reincarnation on 4 mana, or if you cast Celebrant the turn before. Very few archetypes have good answers to a strong board presence of buffed attack and hp minions. This doesn’t mean that is totally unbeatable, but doesn’t seem fair and actually just pushes me to play it myself to get some results in ladder.

The nerf you’re talking about and to Zyx has made it less rampaging, but certainly didn’t make it unplayable. The example of Jax Truesight is emblematic: assures you to cast Strategos the next turn, and if you can’t answer to those 5 ranged minions spread on the board, you can start praying. Oh, then comes the second or even third Jax.

Those trial conditions are so easy to achieve and give so much power that I fail seeing the high rolling factor. I mean just think about the other Mythrons and how harder is to get the trial done: even Nose got nerfed because at 5 mana was too quick to get the trial done.
Somehow I feel like the fairest one is conceptually the Vanar one because the condition to achieve the trial depends on the capacity of your opponents to slow it/avoid it.

That would be cool, thanks :slight_smile: !

Yeah, and so far feels like the only answer (at least playing Vet) is playing wanderer myself :confused: …

Please tell me your secret :smiley: ! I mean, I did include in my deck bunch of spell to prevent as much as possible board presence, but it’s sometimes impossible to deal with a board of minions that if left alive come bigger and stronger with crazy abilities: at some points those minions are buffed into stuff like Indominus and Peacekeeper. Turn 7 it’s like auto-lose, I made some specific suggestions to make that presence less unbearable, what do you think of those?

I don’t understand you, you think it’s fair that for example Strategos allows shitty 1/1 to become Peacekeepers, but “hell no Rae and 5 2/2” … On a side note I have to say that I wouldn’t have reintroduced the battle pets or any spell/card related to them in any way, but at least the fault is partially dispellable, and the 2/2 are easy to kill. I mean, your affirmation is contradictory because in Rae+Fault and Strategos there’s a big presence to deal with but for you Strategos’ one (non dispellable, snowballing) is fair. I don’t get it.

Of course there are some archetypes with good and some with bad match-ups, but the effect obtained by Strategos and Wanderer in relation to the afford to achieve the trial makes them do an end run around the game.

Could be fairer: a tweak in the stats or the Trial condition would be already good.

1 Like
#15

Wanderer is actually somewhat hard to pilot and the 1-of-everything condition is fair. The only thing that should be changed is that Flash Reincarnation and… uuuhhh… that Abyssian card that lowers costs, should NEVER be able to get Wanderer into the field for less than the 6 mana it costs.

Now Strategos, that’s broken… I already hated Brome and this card made it 10x worse. No idea how it could even be reworked.

1 Like
#16

Yeah it’s insane to be able to summon the Wanderer earlier than at 6 mana.
I think that it could even come on the board sort of automatically when a specific condition is met, kinda like Mechazor, changing the automatic trial thing of simply having the 1x into something that has to be achieved during the match.

About Strategos I made some propositions, like having the minions required to be only Lyonar, or being summoned from the action bar only…

1 Like
#17

Very true. Summoning Strategos is the one and only win-con of the deck, and if you see it happening, you should prepare for a loss. Strategos’ Trial is centered around summoning minions and thus the free will of the opponent, so it’s unable to be countered, like that of Hatefurnace and unlike that of Oak. However, until Strategos hits the board, which is roughly about T3 or T4, you definitely have the upper hand, as the deck will only be a mediocre swarm without Strategos. That is when you should overwhelm the opponent.

#18

Also highroll also means drawing the right answers at the right time.

And I can play six lurk maehve for gods sake and beat wanderers without too much effort. Its just making sure you take out their board more than you attempt to put out threats of your own, given how much removal they chug into decks. Just because wanderer is t1 doesnt mean it requires a nerf. Also, as a wanderer player I understand that it actually may have some really strong matchups, it has some extremely bad ones too. It is quite polarized.

Wanna beat wanderer without playing wanderer?

Hard counters (lose like 10-25% of the time)- artihai, mantra, aggro vet/aggro hai/ ascension sajj/ aggro cass/ burn horn/ wizard horn

Advantaged matchups (lose about 40%-55% of the time generally)- control ciphyron/ strategos/ hyper swarm/ burn vanar (not hard counter because it doesnt have the right tools rn to be that good in general)/ creep cassy (huge amounts of removal and inevitability makes it strong)

Bad matchups (lose 65-80% of the time)- any tempo/midrange deck, mid kaleos had best chance until it was nerfed to shit. Six lurk has a hard time, but can still win.

Also lemme be honest.
No one plays strategos.
The nerf was enough to slow it down in its strategos play by another turn 75 percent of the time letting you clear their board and set up your own threats/combo even easier
The nerf to zyx basically crushes strong openers from brome and weakens the war golem combo into coming down later and conflicting with turns in which you want to use removal

Strategos was overtuned and very strong before any nerfs. After nerf it became fair, and t1 to t1.5
With zyx it was castrated and is now a guarenteed t1.5 deck.

Literally just try to hold aoe and you beat truesight jax. Watch for the turn itll come out. Dont attempt to kick a downed, starving dog. At least it can still hit s.
Dont take that away from it. Dont kill another trial.

5 Likes
#19

I think strategos is not op, expetially now that zyx cost 2. The reason is it hardly comes out before 7-8 Mana and even then you still have a couple of turns before it’s effect becomes overwhelming. Also you have to play a lot of card draw in your deck and this slow down the strategy quite a bit.
Wanderer on the other hand consistently hit the board at 6 Mana and can be ramped out at 4. That’s too good because reaching that point with good health and a decent board is very easy, and than you snowball your opponent. I think it should either cost 7 Mana or having much smaller stats so it becomes a worse tempo play, making the deck fairer

2 Likes
#20

You are going have to excuse the language but " Why in f@*K would the nerf make it unplayable?". The point of a nerf is not to make a deck unplayable it is to make counterable.Strategos used to consistently be played on 6 mana and now that is not the case and the deck is much much easier to be dealt with now.

Often when person makes a topic you can tell that main a certain faction. So ask myself the question what type of person thinks that Strategos is OP? A person who play a faction with poor aoe. What factions doesn’t have the aoe to deal with Strategos? Abyss,Vet and maybe Vanar. What faction does the OP play? Vetruvian.Shocker.It is like clock work with these things you might see Magmar player complain about Artifact Songhai or swarm Lilthe player complain about Magmar. They are rock ,paper,scissor elements to these games and sometimes you have to completely change your play style to to beat things

6 Likes