It’s only a coin toss when it’s exactly a 50/50 chance but this will basically never be the case. Strategy in real life (and most strategy games) usually boils down to making decisions under uncertainty. So yes it’s also a game of chance. Calculating the risks and payoffs of each possible course of action is a vital ability for most strategy games because of that. In a game with perfect information you only have to consider how your opponent will use his resources. In games with uncertainty you also have to consider what resources he might have. So yeah there will be cases where you pick the best course of action and lose because your opponent had that one card to counter what you wanted to do. But it is the best course of action because the chance of him having that exact card/set of cards is fairly small.
Its easy for everyone to say its not that bad to the poster, which it isn’t in my opinion. I think this is just lack of experience with Duelyst an trying to translate your experience from similar games. That said I do understand the OP’s frustration, how about you let one of us coach you to rank 10 so you can get an understanding of how to better avoid these situations (mostly as its still gonna happen time to time). Maybe you may view the game differently after.
Below is an example of what you were talking about but I still managed to win this game. (That vanar deck is very cool though)
No one knows what the future holds but we are not talking about things we don’t know anything about, are we?
A new player will have no idea of course but they will learn by mistake. And that is a great process, discovering new things and it is good that there is so much to discover. Otherwise it would get boring so easily.
But later with more experience you can know what threat is coming. Or at least have an educated guess. For that we have the “meta” and the community decides what “meta” is and what not. This has the advantage that you can surprise your opponent with off meta threats they didn’t expect at all
You are right that there are things which are difficult / impossible to play around.
Vanar’s Infiltrate, Avalanche, Fissure is one example but not the best one because Infiltrate has no immediate value and Avalanche and Fissure hit everything so you can see how the opponent is moving to anticipate.
A better example in my opinion is Mist Dragon Seal and Juxtaposition. There is always the moment where you have to consider: "Do I put a minion behind my back to protect it against MDS but make me vulnerable to Juxtaposition or do I put it in front of me (or somewhere else) to protect myself against Juxtaposition but make me vulnerable to MDS?"
That is something I don’t like that much because it is a kind of coin toss. But there aren’t many cards like that.
I’m actually pretty bad at this game, and as an equally crappy player, I really do understand what you mean by too fast. As such, I do agree that duelyst is seriously fast. When I first started playing, mechazor used to kill me, and I think really the problem is in your deck.
Also, losing 12 games in a row happens to nearly everyone.(prepared for the shitstorm where people start saying they were born mlg)
Absolutely, and frankly, u just need to get hope and get and answer, i really doubt that you’ve seriously drawn a hand of silverguards more than once. Just cuz it happened once doesn’t mean you should quit the game. Also, seeing that you’re pissed off with your luck… well maybe you’ll draw an answer next time(i’m being optimistic here. you really need to just improve the deck). but yeah, maybe experiment a bit more before quitting. Don’t just call your luck and the game crap and quit asap.
As a fellow noob, I do agree that things get seriously snowbally at times, and that getting answers may be difficult. Though really, it depends on getting a good deck, and also playing good. I’m not gonna say you’re shit, mainly because budget lists are shit. I tried out a budget list, and found out my custom deck worked a whole lot better. Since I main magmar, and haven’t played much lyonar, I’d say you need to just get your threats on the board more. Again, as a whole bunch of other’s have said, I’m entirely willing to check out your replays. If you can get out more threats on the board(drop your ironcliffe, or somethig idk lyonar much.) you proably would be a bit better off. Also if you really are struggling with a certain faction, drop it and instead go for something else. Vanar if you want to piss people off with a deckload of answers to every goddamn card(send it back to their hand, turn it into a cat, kill it with dispel, ive seen it all) or something else. u should give it a second try, or dust everything, and start with another faction.
Oftentimes minor adjustments in your deck- draw frequency etc. make a huge difference. Also, if you’re pissed, go to magmar. The memes are true there(The church of makantor accepts all)
There is a pretty big power difference between Basic-only decks and early F2P decks, though. Once you have your early F2P staples like Dancing Blades, Sojourner, Hearth-Sister, and the like, you are really not that badly off. I think the difference is actually a lot bigger than between that and a good budget deck (the next step up) or between a good budget deck and a fully built Legendary-studded P2W deck.
I think that the total cost of acquiring these early staples is actually fairly low. You really don’t need to “cannibalize” factions to get to that “excellent” power tier. I started a new F2P for fun when they had that Humble Bundle 20 free Core orbs promotion with like 10 days left in the month. That was a whole lot of Duolist fun. =S
Went from Bronze to Gold in one win streak. Only lost one game the whole month (what was left of it) to a stinkin’ MECHAZ0R deck (what else). =S
Ended with 43-1 playing all the factions here and there without cannibalizing any useful faction cards (but the pulls did dictate which factions got the early focus on crafts and, subsequently, which factions got played more, as dailies allowed). Up until maybe early mid Diamond, players make fatal mistakes frequently enough that you are really in a pretty good place with just the big power jump the early F2P staples give you over Basic-only.
If I had to start without the 20 Core orb boost, then things would have, in all likelihood, gone quite a bit worse for me. Once I started hitting bad players with cards at around Rank 15, without the early F2P staples, I probably would have had lost quite a few more without the big Basic-only to early F2P staples power boost.
Now, 20 Core orbs take maybe two weeks to earn? So Duolist is really quite the opposite of P2W in reality. However, without giving the new players those 20 Core orbs at the start, I think CPG is really not doing a very good job of showcasing this Duolist strength right off the bat. I think that the New Player Experience™ may be substantially better if CPG is a little more generous at the start. I mean, something to the tune of an extra 10-15 Core orbs to start in the tutorial for some Spirit may go a long way in showcasing this strength early.
You don’t really want to take the chance of players quitting before two weeks without ever seeing this. =S One week to hit their stride to give them a sense of progress, maybe. Two weeks to hit their stride may be a bit too long to ask them to wait before they pass their Final Judgement™ on the game. I mean, most of them probably aren’t going to come to the forums and ask for clarification, you know. =S
Misunderstanding. I was saying yet, followed by the next quote, as you directly contradicted your own point.
So at what point does the game become more a game of chance and less a game of strategy? @boronian provides another great example of Mist Dragon Seal and Juxtaposition.
I think these provide a “lose-lose” type of feeling because you’re simply guessing, (especially with MDS and Juxta). By this point it becomes a matter of hope rather than deduction.
So I’m assuming it was a whole lot easier now. Players have had time now to get cards, the library has expanded a lot since then, and while yes there is a fair jump from basic deck to budget deck, players who choose to do this do slow down their progress towards legendaries and fully fleshed out decks due to innefficient use of spirit.
Uhh its actually harder i think on a budget now than what it used to be. This is because some factions require answers to threats and each expansion adds more threats than answers. An example would be Vetruvian needs Rashas Curse and Blood of air to fight ranged threats and one of those cant even be crafted.
Regardless of this aggro decks can do decently well to a certain point, then its a grind from diamond to s rank. This is due to having unfavorable matchups due to card quality.
I am not contradicting myself. I repeat there aren’t so many “guess” moment in the game that I am concerned about it. Not at all. MDS + Juxta is the only one, everything else is easier to predict.
I created several smurf accounts over the last months to test the f2p experience and had no problems to get several good working budget decks in a few days.
And no they are not slowing down their progress because most of thecards in the budget decks are good cards you always need as base. Legendaries aren’t that important in general. Magmar as a faction rarely plays legendaries. Spelljammer is relatively common though many decks don’t have any draw because Magmar often plays just on curve.
To be honest I don’t know what you want to prove. That you can’t go s-rank with a basic only deck? Yes that is true but with almost every other deck you can get to s-rank. And people who invest money (or time) should have better decks but these decks shouldn’t automatically mean they win and that it doesn’t. Sounds like really good F2P to me.
Hsuku’s latest fzth deck had 5 epics, 8 rares. Several of these he got from orbs.
I agree with this aspect.
These are contradicting as it shows that there is card dependency and therefore necessity (yes it may be done cheaply, but is still required).
Typo? I don’t know what “fzth” deck is. Also, are these 5 epics and 8 rares total, or 5 unique epics and 8 unique rares each with 3 copies? This is a massive difference in spirit cost to build.
I disagree with this. Just because one faction may not need them doesn’t negate all of it. There is a massive jump of legendaries and/or high spirit decks from a good deck and a flushed out deck. When I said slowing down their progress (and they are) I said by using spirit inefficiently. By players having to go from basic decks to budget decks, they need to DE and craft rare (and maybe epic) cards. This IS an inefficient use of spirit, as it is more efficient to put spirit into legendaries due to orb drop rates. By spending spirit on budget cards, they aren’t spending them on harder to obtain legendaries, hence slowing down.
I don’t mean this to have a demeaning tone, but out of genuine interest, can I ask how far you got with them? How much of a budget were they? While there’s definitely some relevance, I think there’s an important difference between a smurf f2p experience with a new player in that new players don’t know what cards are good. You want a true new player f2p experience, drop 1000 spirit or so into wasted cards or bad legendaries
My whole point of this comes down to this:
While I stand by my point, I agree with the one you mentioned is equally important: People who invest money or time should have better decks but these decks shouldn’t automatically mean they win and that it doesn’t.
fzth I believe is “From Zero to Hero” and that amount of 5 epics an 8 rares is also total. Hsuku is a wizard lol.
Of course my f2p experience was better because I knew what I was doing but if there are enough guides to help people if they want to look for them. https://duelyst.gamepedia.com/Guides
To craft rares and commons is not an inefficient use of spirit because they are so cheap and important for a good (budget) deck which helps earning gold. For one legendary you can craft 3 sets of rares that is way more impactful. They form the foundation for every deck. Legendaries are often important no doubt about that but they often have more niche roles.
I never said decks aren’t important only that skill is more important.
I stop participating in this discussion now because we are turning in circles.
Hey again everyone, this discussion sure took an interesting turn since I’ve been at work, so I haven’t been able to keep up with it. A couple general remarks:
I don’t know why the budget / F2P aspect, or the rank aspect keep being brought up precisely. Because I’m afraid people might be misinterpreting my position on this, I’d like to say a couple of things:
First: if it turns out that there is a substantial power difference between “budget” or “F2P” decks and tuned decks, I fully expect that as part of the nature of CCG’s, that broadening your card pool will sharpen your strategies / synergies per mana spent and give you an edge. No big deal.
Second: What rank I get to precisely with my deck isn’t the main point of my post. I do worry that the problems I’m seeing in Silver will get far worse as I rank up and my opponents will play more sophisticated “meta” threats on curve more consistently, which is why my initial post was a “canary in a coal mine” moment as far as I’m concerned. Aside from that, if I like the game (and right now I do) I’ll just roll with the punches and get as high as I can. I’m really not too worried about my rank from a “balance” perspective, but rather from a “personal knowledge” perspective only. And some nice people are taking time out to give me tips on that front, so I see things working themselves out.
As an update, I spent $30 on the game, buying the 10 starter orbs, then the two “bundles” that come with legendary’s / epics. With them I crafted my third Holy Immolation and all three of my Arclyte Regalia (man that card is fun, even if it weren’t usable in any meta deck, I’d still build around that) and have 1200 more spirit for “tech cards”. So that’s my final take on the budget / F2P / rank part of the discussion.
Now as to the other bit of the discussion I find interesting, this idea of uncertainty in answers. I had a nice winning streak going on and my last match before work today broke it. Vanar Mechaz0r. So I was thinking about why this match pissed me off today, and I think it helped focus my feedback on this topic a bit. So it’s like this. Vanar just destroys me, all the time. I only win when the person playing Vanar is just pure awful, otherwise it’s usually not even a fight (they usually end at like 19-23 hp with nothing on my board threatening them).
So I’ve been cataloging answers that help me suck less against Vanar, Bloom for walls, Alchemist if they go buffs / artifacts, tiger because it’s tiger, etc. Right, so I have this giant plate of possible answers to possible threats that Vanar destroys me with, just by their very existence. Usually, Martyrdom, not on that list. So I’m playing Vanar, trying to figure out what to keep in my hand, I think I’m alright. I see a mechaz0r thing and almost flip a table. I spend the rest of the game trying to deal with the mechs on curve, but don’t have efficient answers (at best I go 1 for 1 because so many have 3+ health). The whole time I’m looking for Martyrdom, so I can bloom / martyrdom the Mechaz0r that shows up. I never did get martyrdom, but it wouldn’t have mattered if I did.
I was basically being stunlocked / kited while the Vanar was free to draw cards, keep my board clean, and I would have had to blow two very good removals just to deal with the FREE Mechaz0r. I would have been utterly buried in card advantage despite dealing with the Mechaz0r. So what do I need? Crossbones. But here’s the kicker: how often do Vanar ACTUALLY use ranged units I care about? Not very. Usually it’s walls or super buffs, or big fatties combined with polymorphs / stuns. Etc.
So even if I had Crossbones to deal with Mechaz0r without being 2 for 1’d, would I have known look for / keep it in the first couple of turns, given that my opponent was Vanar? What would I have gotten rid of for it? Bloom? Surprise, they’re a wall build. I could just not develop a board state ever and try packing all answers until I see what they play? This is my point. T4 Mechaz0r is brutal (I mean T4 8/8 hexproof / doesn’t take combat damage would be one hell of a wombo combo in MtG unless Legacy / Vintage, and I’ve heard horror stories of him coming out as early as T2 on Reddit).
Niche threat, requiring a niche answer in a faction that runs so many ridiculous “niche answerable” strategies (no one else runs anything quite like walls that I’ve seen, abyssian swarm is close, but not quite the same level of WTF), and you must furnish the answer by turn 2-4. That’s the thrust of my post here. It’s this aspect of the game that’s annoying me, not the ranked / F2P stuff.
yea burst damage is a trend that duelyst has copied from many cards games mistakes.
I think you misread. I reached rank 15ish with a basic list, before taking my first loss. I can pilot basic lists to diamond. I’m not sure I can reach S-Rank with them, but it may be possible. It is certainly possible with just core and craftable commons, as I’ve demonstrated a number of times in the past with different generals.
Still possible with just commons.
Don’t pack Crossbones. Use general answers. If you encounter Mechazor that frequently, tech in a general 2-3 card answer like sunset paragon that isn’t a dead card in other match-ups. Within the first few turns, you’ll know if you need to maintain that central position in order to be able to hit every tile on the board once Mechazor hits the board.
Questions like these are answered with experience, but if you’re not having fun and/or find you’re hitting your personal limit, you do really only have two choices: back off from the game, or talk to folks in the community, watch streams or youtube videos and try and find out how more experienced people are answering these threats.
Mechazor is one of the most luck based decks.
Remember if they win it’s luck and if you win it’s skill .
You can often just smash your opponent first. Sometimes before Mechazor is summoned and sometimes on your turn right after it gets summoned.
Mech minions, while haves effects, are generally lower stat.
1/4 Wings does less damage than a 2/3 2 drop. 3/3 Sword instead of a 3/5 Silverguard Knight. etc.
Hold that Sunbloom. A dispelled Mechazor is much easier to handle. Namely the ranged ability. Sunbloom is the usual soft answer to Mechazor for Lyonar.
They might have something to move it though, aka Hearth Sister.
Use whatever you have to clear the dispelled Mechazor when it is near you. Or rush opponent if appropriate.
Oi you, mechaz0r! requires a lot of skill to play well, a turn 2 mechaz0r! Is just a bonus.
I’m sorry for that match hsuku.
Hey, thanks for the Sunset Paragon recommendation. I’ve been studying the card list and must have missed it somehow, but it’s actually a great card for my strategy regardless of what I’m teching against (anything strong enough to bust through arclyte regalia’s shield is “probably” strong enough to kill itself or close with this card). So I used the last of my spirit to craft 2x, can’t wait to try them out later tonight!
I sent a request to customer service to delete my account. I will not be replying to this topic any longer, enjoy the game, it’s clearly not for me.
Don’t take it hard, you guys are nice people. But my last match had me raging so hard I wanted to punch a hole in my monitor. Nothing I do in this game feels “right”. I don’t feel like I’m building anything, or that I’m really strategizing in any meaningful way. I’m just trying to do the least sucky option, live long enough until my opponent runs out of gas, and then wombo combo them with a big creature or beat them to death with an artifact.
Everything is a landmine, nothing is an 'aha!" moment.
The grid doesn’t even work in my favor as Lyonar, it only ever works in favor of my opponent (because they actually build board states, I just plop down a creature, hope it lives, and combo them in the face with it, (which just feels cheesy as hell if I pull it off successfully anyway).
I probably picked the wrong faction. Too late now. Would be too inefficient to dust my stuff and start over, and I just feel empty and exhausted even thinking about the game anymore. I’m going to focus on games where there are “multiple right answers” to a given board state and the answer doesn’t always boil down to you “you suck purely because you didn’t do the one right thing X at the given time.”
Sorry, maybe I’ll program a bot to play for me next time FFS. Eternal’s mana flood / screw are unforgivable. But at least the pacing and building a board felt good in that game, and it felt like there were multiple “right” ways to deal with threats.
I said I wasn’t going to comment again but I can understand why people would be so confused by the abruptness of this after I just said I’d give the game another go. Hopefully that clarifies things, even if the takeaway is just “mad cuz bad” or whatever.
I am really sorry to hear that!
Was it the match against Randomdoodle which made you so angry?
I just watched it and you made some dubious decisions in the mulligan phase and first turn which set you a lot behind. And that can be difficult in Duelyst that actions so early in the game snowball into a game in which you always feel behind, only reacting to your opponent and powerless. For that it only helps to improve and get better I fear.