Increase consistency of decks by using 3x of each card. (Except for some uncommon or niche cases, which you would use 2x instead)
Include card draw. Drawing extra cards helps to draw what you need sooner. Keeping your hand full means you can answer a wider variety of threats. The process of thinning your deck means there are fewer possible cards that can be drawn as well.
I do see your point regarding “answer-or-die” threats tho.
Holy hell. Comments were trickling in before I went to bed, and now there’s a flood of them. As a general comment, people seem to be fixated on my example of ranged while missing my broader point (some are getting it though, kudos).
If they have all the cards they need, then I didn’t discredit anything did I? I specifically said, I’d only believe it if they had a decked out card pool by that time in the season. You confirmed it, the end.
Sometimes, and sometimes what you’ve drawn / replaced just can’t deal and you lost on turn 4/5, making the game an utter waste of time.
Thank you. That’s the extent of my feedback.
I mentioned this aspect in my facebook version of this rant, but forgot to mention it here. Yes, I understand the concept of card advantage, I’m not an idiot.
30 min in. The deck he’s using is roughly like the deck I’m using except he runs the dispel creatures and I didn’t. That being said, the difference between the high rank he was playing against and what I go up against was that his opponent was easier. His opponent was greedy and chose to copy the ranged creature allowing him to remove them in exactly the same way I do all the time. If instead, his opponent would have teleported the range he made and copied it a turn later, he would have lost. He didn’t have an answer ready for that, just as I don’t (despite my aggressive cycling for one).
I replaced some cards that weren’t cutting it for me with martyrdom and I opened a Holy immolation and crafted another. Yes, I’m aware that removal is important.
I just got done watching a high ranking player go through a situation where he would have lost to the same shenanigan that I regularly lose to. Clearly this transcends more than just my lack of experience.
Well feel free to take it up with GrincherZ. Apparently the dude just sucks and doesn’t know how to build decks or something. Who knew?
Imagine my shock when they do. Regularly.
Yes, I have no problem dealing with that card at all. It’s still a melee beater, and I have a plethora of options for dealing with melee beaters. Swarms, walls, ranged units, and the very niche crazy strategies like that are the issue.
A: I didn’t say ANYTHING was overpowered in my post. Not once. I said that MUST REMOVE cards are played as early as turn 4, which you agreed to. I didn’t say the removal for them doesn’t exist. Seriously, is this how people are reading my post? Is this why the condescension is so rampant?
B: No one yet has disagreed with me on the game being snowbally. In fact several people have completely agreed with me on that fact in this post. So I don’t even see how any of this nonsense is necessary.
Except people are telling me that it’s precisely as bad as I think it is (my actual criticism of the game design, not your imagined version of my “rant” in which i’m complaining about things being OP).
Except, once again, people here are confirming the point I’m actually making while not confirming the imaginary point you think I’m making. As far as your quip about other games, neither Shadowverse nor Eternal have this particular problem. Eternal has a mana screw / flood problem, and Shadowverse has a “must play on curve or get ran over” problem, but neither game has an “answer this right now on turn 4 or you lose” problem.
I was at rank 17 (almost 16) with my particular deck, so it’s nice to know I’m not too far off the ballpark. I ran into a giant losing streak that pushed me back down to rank 20 though because people just kept doing the same cheese over and over, and despite my aggressive cycling, i couldn’t get the answers. That’s when I saw the game for what it was and decided I’d had enough.
THIS! Thank god someone else gets it and puts it in a way that maybe the “you’re just whining about things being OP” people will get. Maybe you’re “speaking their vernacular” better than I am. Thank you for the contribution at any rate!
You would think. Apparently my luck is excessively bad or somethng.
Yeah, I’d let you know when I got those cards. As far as staying in the center, all well and good until the deck turns out to be a glass cannon / spell slinger and you can’t get your minions close enough to provide pressure before you’re burned down.
Again, i am not saying shit like this doesn’t happen, it does. Be it because of bad luck or matchup or both. Lost 2 games to a turn 3 mechazor today, my decks didn’t even have an answer for that to begin with and i couldn’t quite race him so i lost. Care? Bad match up and bad luck coming together, happens. Move on. If you play properly you will still win a lot more than you lose because of such extreme cases.
It wouldn’t have mattered at all. Giving Mogwais hand he was able to deal with everything. Had his opponent just teleportet the heart seeker to a corner and copied it then a tempest would have cleaned both. The combination of killing edge + teleport was countered by Tiger + shroud. With those 2 and his general close to the center of the map, Mogwai had reach to literally any place of the map.
/edit he didn’t even need both, Azurite Lion + Shroud alone would have been enough to deal with it. Alternatively Tiger + Tempest would work as well though it’s not as good as a solution.
Yeah well I went from one away from being rank 16 back down to rank 20 because I went that many games in a row without getting the answer I needed to deal with the turn 4 cheese my opponents were using. If you want to conclude from this that I’m salty because my luck just isn’t good enough for this game, then so be it. My luck isn’t good enough.
That’s the feedback for the developers. If people are happy enough with it as is and business is doing well, they’ll pay it no mind and neither should you. If they see a pattern of new players coming in, playing, then quitting and they briefly cite a similar reasoning on their exit survey, then hopefully the extra detail I went into in this post might be of some help to them in the future. That’s it. That’s my entire point for writing this post.
True. I forget that you can’t move diagonal but you can summon diagonal.
That’s called tilting. Happens to everyone from time to time. Personally i’ve set myself a rule, if i lose 3 games in a row, quit playing for the day. Nothing good will come out of it if i keep playing after that.
Going on a losing streak from 16 to 20 is not bad luck, it’s just a lack of knowledge about the game which leads to tons of misplays.
If you enjoy the game as you write in the title, there are many great guys who can help you to improve your skills with the proper time and patience. You will never win all games, but you can win much more than losing.
Feel free to add me in game if you like. I’m not a great player, but you can check my replays, get advices, etc.
So a deck makes the player?
A s-rank deck means a s-rank player?
You are talking of a budget deck.
It’s obvious it can’t answer anything.
While i’m not that kind of “git gud” guy, i’m afraid this may just be a rant over
As far as i understand, the deck you posted is not the one you are/were using.
I personally don’t dislike the position of the game right now, the new exp brought some nice tactical elements with sentinels and some position effect.
This may seem as a game with just a dumb amount of seemingly op threats and answers.
“The one who draws the answer wins”
The fact is, every faction has strong and weak points.
You must play following those.
I don’t expect new players to understand this immediately, as i didn’t too.
When i started i hated abyssians, i always liked vetruvians (my main), and there was not blood of air to save you from backline minions.
i had no answer for those, bloodmoon priestess could won a game by herself against me.
I still don’t like abyssians mostly because of this “first impression”.
The only thing i didn’t had was an answer to a card my faction was probably supposed to lose against.
And that was not even true, it was just that i didn’t want to play cards like repulsor beast,
For apparently no reason.
After this bit of backstory no one cares about:
So, ranged value generators and big beatsticks are a problem for you, what have you done to tech against those problems?
and after messing around in the deckbuilder, are those problem solved?
I’m by no means an expert of lyonars, but they seem to have only immolation as tempo play.
It’s normal to have a bad time against value generators.
You can’t answer everithing, but you already have the tools to do so,
Like frostburn naga and crossbones.
They may not be the best, but you just started.
The problem isn’t the game being "too swingy"
The problem isn’t the ranged minion your opponent decided to overly buff (making the wrong move)
The problem is not even the lack of cards
The problem is that you miss experience.
Simple as that.
You probably just touched the water, saw it was cold and decided this isn’t for you.
And believe it or not,
Take it personal,
Start insulting people:
I hope cpg takes your worries and opinions into account in the future, as this game is starting to look really great.
(When they decide locking regions is not healty, but there already is a thread for this)
Curious to exactly what these “scary” threats are. That is like about 5/6 mana turn.
I’m calling “answer or die threat” as one you can die the next turn.
You start with 25 HP and you shouldn’t die within one turn, assuming roughly even board.
If you don’t die within one turn the game isn’t over.
Being at a disadvantage does not mean you will always lose.
Remember to put your own threats as well that your enemy needs to answer.
Of course everyone has their own taste.
There are those who hate “I can’t remove stuff”.
There are those who hate “Everything I played is removed. So uninteractive.”
Not everyone can be happy. If it really isn’t the right game for you then good luck finding something you do find fun.
What the hell? So I worked my way to (almost) 16. Held it for a day, and then suddenly bombed out of it, because suddenly I sucked at the game? Your logic makes no sense. My lack of knowledge, given the decks I was beating, would preclude me from reaching my rank in the first place if knowledge was the problem. My methods for beating them which had worked, didn’t change. What did change was suddenly I was drawing 3 silver knights when I really needed a dispel. Several games in a row.
No, but the accusation that was levied against me was “bad deck construction”. To which I replied, take it up with the builder.
It can answer most things. WHEN I DRAW THE ANSWERS.
It was until I made some changes to it right before I quit. Seeing as how the changes weren’t removing any of the answers provided in the stock deck, and in some cases might have even added new ones, we can proceed assuming that this indeed was the deck I was using.
No. My position is, the first one to fail to draw an answer loses. That’s not the same thing.
Little shadowling things right? Yeah, my matches with them come down to whether or not I draw tempest when I need it. I get tempest and hose them with it at the right time, I win. I draw it too late and they buff minions out of tempest range, I get overrun and die. Pretty simple.
I play repulsor beast. The only card that I “should” play that I wasn’t was ephemeral shround and that’s only because it wasn’t on the recommended list. If I were to start playing again, the first thing I’d do is add it into my deck.
For ranged? If it’s ranged + teleport, bloom. I added martyrdom myself later. If I’m able to stay in the center of the map, tiger. For beatsticks? I’m the opening Lyonar general. Meaning any threat I have on the board can be pumped +2 to take out a beatstick if that’s a problem. Also repulsor beast. That card is amazing if you have to close but they just put a melee threat on board that you can’t deal with.
Yes. WHEN I DRAW THEM BY TURN 4. My problem isn’t answers. It’s when I’m expected to draw them, coupled with my notoriously bad luck.
I don’t know precisely what you mean by tempo play, unless you mean it in the sense of “I have board advantage, and I’m going to keep it by playing spells to remove the new threats” then repulsor beast does that just fine, so long as the buffed threats are melee. It’s ranged, swarm, walls that really get me. I now have a better answer to the latter two now that I’ve crafted holy immolation. It’s just a matter of drawing it.
Just looked those up. Good cards. I never denied the existence of tools. I currently don’t have them, but they’re there.
Depends on what I mean by “problem”. If I mean “reason I can’t win” then probably. If I mean “thing that makes the game not enjoyable” then yes, by definition it’s a problem.
Right. The problem was my failing to draw the answer that I put into my deck for that situation.
“The” lack, or “my” lack?
Except my issue of the game persists regardless of rank. Regardless of my ability to DEAL with the issue doesn’t make it any more fun to have to, on the spot, be able to deal with such an issue. There’s a reason I play Commander in MtG and not Legacy / Vintage where turn 2-4 combos are rampant. Yeah, they have answers. No, it’s not fun having to find an opponent, shuffle up, and have the game resolve turn 2 / 3 because you didn’t have the “right” answer.
Depends on what you mean by that metaphor.
I completely believe people when they say “these nasty cards have answers that good players know how to use”. The contrary was never my contention. I don’t take any of this personally, because my point is the pace of the game is unfun, which comes down to people’s personal tastes matching or not matching mine. Since I’m on the Duelyst forum, where the majority of participants are probably playing / enjoying the game, clearly I don’t expect my view to be held by many here.
But I’ve not once insulted anyone. At worst, I’ve taken them to task for conflating my criticisms of game pacing with “OP complaints”, but that’s as far as I’ve gone on the matter.
I refer to the threat as something that will keep your from interacting with the board so long as it’s up. So a 5/3 ranged character will kill everything in my deck aside from two creatures, providing my opponent perfect tempo advantage. If I can’t deal with that, my opponent can flood board asymmetrically until I can find an answer, at which point it’s probably too late.
Or the other threats are where my opponent brings in a whole bunch of tokens turn 4, in order to super buff them and swing me down turn 5. The tokens die or I do. Either or.
Depends on the disadvantage and how long it persists for. Again, I beat someone with 3-4 18/19 power creatures on board, no problem. Some things I can play around. Some things I can’t.
I think you’re missing it. The problem isn’t “I can’t remove stuff”. The problem is 'Turn 4/5 is too early to expect that I MUST remove stuff else I either die or permanently lose board depending on the threat". Fundamentally different than either of those two things.
Is that what I said? I don’t think that’s what I said. In fact, I don’t even think that any objective reader could reasonably think that’s what I said. In fact I went through great pains to be as clear as possible. Let me try again, from the top:
When I ranked up from 20 to 17, I beat several decks using tech’d answers.
For a day I held rank 17 winning / losing against said decks.
When I ranked down from 17 to 20, I fought the same decks and had the same answers.
The difference was that I didn’t draw said answers like I did during the games in which I ranked up.
To which you replied: “You ranked down because you’re unskilled”. This hypothesis cannot be rejected out of hand. But for it to be a likely hypothesis, it has to account for premises 1 and 2, i.e. it has to explain how the lack of skill that pulled me down against these deck types, didn’t first keep me from ranking up, and holding against them in the first place.
Thus my reply, is not “I ranked up because I’m good” as you’re trying to summarize, but rather that whatever my skill is, good or bad, should be taken ceteris paribus on both my rank up, and my rank down.
Welcome to the post, friend!
No. At this point, I’d settle for them being able to articulate my position correctly and nothing more.
Good question! I enjoy discussion, have nothing else better to do, and it grinds my gears that some people aren’t actually commenting on my position. I feel, for clarity’s sake, that I should try to make it as clear as possible in the event that someone finds interest in this feedback. Further, looking at what people understand (or don’t) serves to help me write more clearly in the future. Due to these discussions, I can now go back and edit my post in a way that might make things more clear.
I’d say the game is swingy, but that possibility will have to be a nature of a card game that is designed to be fast paced. (Not sure why the two would be problems would have to be opposed haha.) Examples may be provided on the following reply.
Starting from 25 hp, it is quite typical to be able to die at 15 hp. The fact that you’re at risk of dieing and losing while at 60% of your total health IS pretty massive, and new players would have NO idea of such burst combos existing, likely leading to frequent bitter taste of the game.
“Answer or die” could also just be “Answer or lose” to where your general is so weakened as to be forced to run away for the rest of the game (save heals). I’d say answer cards may be required as early as the very first or second round.
Songhai? Almost anything, you never want to allow them to have a minion up. But a list of some early, answer or lose threats:
Kelaino used to be. Scintilla, Katara, Rancour, Gro, Circulus still IS an answer or lose (just easier to answer now), Komodo Charger, Abyssal Juggernaut, Bloodmoon Priestess, Dioltas in Lyonar (buffed in either form), Drogon, 4 Winds Magi, Kolossus (technically lol), Shadowdancer, Sirocco (answering the spawned golems), and the infamous Ironcliffe Guardian.
All of these are at 5 mana or less.
I’m on the side that there are answers everywhere (ex: Vanar), but I think this only reinforces the OP’s point: With so many threats, so many answers are also required. The saturation of strong cards does require you draw answers, and by not drawing them, the game swings as consequence.
I would assume this is the nature of CCG’s, but I would guess that being at risk of losing at 60% health when an opponent has no board is not normal in CCG’s, or at least shouldn’t be. (It’s definitely not friendly to new players in that regard)
Have you tried putting more card draw in your deck?
There are cards like sun wisp that shines in those cases (and are easy to craft).
The whole problem may be there XD.
Anyway, consider the opponent has a precise amount of removal and threat too, play this to your advantage.
A normal deck doesn’t run more than 6 “hard removal” (destroy/trasform) and 3 board removal (like tempest or frostburn)
Remember that a removal often means you are not developing board, so baiting out a lot of removal can actually win you the game.
That’s probably what the other players have done/tried to do against you…
More or less, a tempo play is a bit complicate to explain, but see it as “comeback” move/card.
Cards like holy immolation are almost never used as attack cards (unless lethal) but as comeback: you use then when you are behind on board to regain advantage over your opponent.
They are really cheap cards in the end.
Mostly because you’ll want only 2 crossbones in a deck due to them being really situational
And naga is a common card.
The second one, and that’s depends from person to person
“The” lack, basic tools are good enough to reach gold rank.
This wasn’t meant as an attack, i could have written “start breeding unicorns” but that could have been seen as insulting
That’s not tempo…
It’s infinite value.
But so, you do or do not know what tempo is ?
No, i meant it as saying
"i think you are too new to the game and feel like your last losing streak is because of the game swingy nature"
But i would be upset if someone told me something like this, mostly because we are writing and it’s difficult to tell if someone is insulting you or speaking kindly to you.
So: going off of your original post and what I’ve skimmed through on this thread, let’s look at what the ‘issues’ are here.
(Disclaimer: I will still use your example of a ranged minion because it’s easily applicable, but I will also be applying it to the bigger picture and using different examples and anecdotes.)
First: The notion of an ‘answer or die’ threat. Contrary to popular opinion, tons of early game threats in Duelyst actually do not qualify as this (especially so in recent times). The threat in this case, buffed ranged minions, is actually great to illustrate my point. I’ve gone several games where my Ki Beholder (a ranged minion) goes unanswered on turn one and I still lose the game. Why? Because the amount of value that ranged minions generate is not enough to win a game alone …
Ranged, in particular, is limited to of course whatever damage that particular minion can do in one turn. Similarly, the amount of value that most (faux) “answer or die” threats in Duelyst is limited. In MANY cases (speaking from my experience as a top-50 S-Ranker) it is actually correct to simply allow your opponent to get value from whatever minion they have in favor of preserving your cards for later.
This is exemplified in the case of a buffed ranged minion, which can easily result in a loss(!) for the player who owns said ranged minion. Taking the example of Songhai’s Ki Beholder, most commonly it will be buffed with something like Killing Edge. In such a scenario, my opponent will have invested two cards and presumably 6 mana into something that can be trivialized by one card and only 2 mana (Sun Bloom). At this point, if you simply hold your answer or draw into it slightly late, you get far more value out of your one card and will likely get enough tempo to outright win the game.
Second: The matter of drawing your answers. Once again there seems to be a lot of misconceptions here. For the most part, Duelyst is actually a very proactive game. What I mean by this is that instead of playing simply ‘reacting’ to your opponents things (with dispels and such), most of the game is usually driven by the player that is attempting to advance their own gameplan.
There are decks that have very reactive playstyles (such as Vanar decks) but those are mostly a minority, and usually they contain enough removal that it’s nearly impossible to not draw them. This is where my next point factors in: having direct removal for a certain minion is not always necessary. I’ll present a simple case that uses the deck made by grincherz that you referenced earlier:
Me and you are playing eachother in a friendly game of Duelyst. It’s your turn and both of our boards are empty. You have 5 mana, so you decide to play the Ironcliffe Guardian you have in hand. Now, you’re really liking this situation because I’m at 13 HP and you also have a Divine Bond in your hand so you can kill me if I don’t do something about the Ironcliffe.
Now comes my turn. I realize I have nothing in my hand that can fully remove the Ironcliffe so what do I do? Well, I’m also playing a Lyonar deck, but my deck is very heavy on healing. So realizing the danger I’m in, having 6 mana, I play my own Ironcliffe to provoke your ironcliffe and heal myself up to 18 HP by using a Sundrop Elixir. Now, even if you have a way to remove my Ironcliffe and use a divine bond in the same turn, you still can’t win the game.
Here, I’ve illustrated a situation where I don’t have a direct removal answer to your potentially game-ending threat, but through making my own proactive plays, I’m still able to continue on with the game.
Last main point: The case of indirect answers, which while similar to above, is slightly different point. Many things in Duelyst are very flexible plays. Saberspine Tiger, for example, can be used as a finisher or simply to remove a problematic minion your opponent has. Especially when combined with Roar, you can remove a ton of minions (such as that buffed ranged threat in the backline).
And if you are replacing / mulliganing correctly, it’s extremely likely to have a dispel removal / damage removal card in your hand by turn one. There was math done to calculate that with 9 two mana or less cards you have around a ~97% chance to draw one by your first turn. I’m no mathematician, but I’d imagine it’s relatively easy to translate that to being able to draw most of your answers rather early on in the game.
Now there is a caveat here. There are in fact some cards that will simply win the game if unanswered for as long as one turn (Such as Grandmaster Zendo, a 6 mana Songhai card). Sometimes, yes, you don’t draw into the answer you needed. But if you went from rank 16 to rank 20 that isn’t a case of getting unlucky for some what, 8-12 games? That is a simple case of not playing correctly. In S-Rank I can confidently maintain a 70-75% win rate with a good deck and good play. Now you’re in silver, where people are making misplays with abound. You shouldn’t be losing that many games in a row. There’s something much more going on there than just your “luck”.
Going through the many examples that I did, I find it very hard to believe that you played through so many games at a level where people are making tons of mistakes and you still somehow lost all of them, only through “bad luck”. You would have to be somehow drawing an entire 6 cards consisting of only windblade adepts to not be able to anything about the situations you faced in each particular game.
Furthermore, even if you did somehow find yourself drawing so poorly that there was simply absolutely nothing that could be done (which again is such a minuscule chance it cannot be said to be a norm in Duelyst), you could take to asking the community how you could modify the deck as to so have better answers to what your opponent is doing. (Rather than saying “must be the game’s fault!”)
One player has to win eventually and Duelyst advertises itself as a fast-paced game, so it makes sense that more large threats would come online earlier. Yes sometimes you’ll lose to big threat rather than war of attrition or aggro beatdown. The big takeaway is that many of us have learned what the game ending threats are and are not, and thus have learned how to play around them and how to properly anticipate and answer them.
Like I said, I don’t know how you’re using the word. In MtG, the way it’s used is something like Jeskai Tempo, where you play a cheap minion that gets buffs when you cast a spell and then you hold mana open to protect it. Then on your turn, you play a kill spell to kill your opponent’s creature and then swing. Rinse / repeat. Tempo takes advantage of the fact that “noramally” your opponent can’t play a creature and use it same turn, so as long as you kill their newest creature, you’re the only one swinging.
In that sense, that’s what setting up the ranged character does. He kills any new threat you put on the board while you swing away with old ones. On the other hand, because it doesn’t cost you a card to do this, it is a value engine as well. So I’d say it’s both value / tempo in the way I’ve been taught to use the word.
Well it’s like Jordan Peterson says, often the people you want to listen to the most are those who speak critically of you, because they’ll let you know what your problems are and where to fix them. I have no problem with that.
What annoys me is when I’m trying to convey to people “This game feels way too fast, akin to Competitive EDH / Legacy given the way threats just explode out from nowhere, so it’s not my cup of tea” and people are trying to spin this as if I’m complaining about X being OP, or something something ranked.
OK, this is the interesting perspective I was hopnig for. Given that you can basically kill any unit they put on the board instantly with no counterattack, how is that not enough value? How do you lose that?
Yes. Usually my go-to answer, if I draw it.
True. So are you saying don’t summon “anything” so they get no value from the ranged unit, and just eat the damage until you can find an answer? Play cards to protect your face? How many? How much value do they get befoer you throw in the towel?
True. I usually play through the situation you described because supposing they remove your guardian and buff theirs, you live on 5 hp and then next turn, you can use a teleport dog to move their buffed guardian out to a corner for a couple of turns, and then you play your threat, putting your opponent back on the defensive.
Yeah the tiger is currently my favorite minion in the game just due to how flexible it is.
Yeah. That’s why imagine my frustration when several games in a row I aggressively mulliganed for my answers and just kept getting silver knights or high cost units that won’t help for some time. Given my luck, I usually have more success with CCG’s that give me an extra turn or two to put something together.
But I’m telling you, I didn’t get the removal I should have a 97% chance of getting. Nothing else about the way I played changed.
You say that, but I can promise you any given sitting, I can go 5 games in a row without being able to play on curve on a game like Hearthstone even with a netdeck. You truly don’t know how bad my luck is.
And Silver Knights.
If my goal was to improve at the game, you’re right. This isn’t me saying “Legacy MtG sucks because I can’t do well.” This is me saying “Given my luck, and the pace of Legacy, I think I’ll be better served playing Casual EDH.”
And there it is. A lot of games advertise themselves as 'fast". It’s a question of “how fast”. It turns out that this one was “too fast” to the point where I feel the entire grid system as a whole is under served by the raw speed and emphasis on combo over subtle maneuvers with larger armies (ala Advance Wars et al.), but that’s just my opinion.
Thanks for your time. I really am curious how you could lose a game with basically an infinite value engine on the field though. That’s just nuts.
If you are willing to add me as a friend in the game (IGN: boronian), I will do a replay analysis for you. Just tell me which game(s) and I’ll look at it / them and do a detailled analysis on what was good and what was less good.
Watching your own replays is a good way to improve.