Nerf Discussion: Thumping Wave


#1

NERF THREAD ALERT! If you’re tired of nerf threads, please run now!

I’ve been becoming increasingly concerned with the spell “Thumping Wave”. For those who don’t know, this is a 3 mana spell which increases the attack of any minion by 5, then transforms it into a 3/3 battle pet at the end of the turn.

I feel that Magmar already has incredible single-target removal spells in Natural Selection and Egg Morph. But more importantly in my opinion is the 5 attack buff. I compare this buff to that of Abyssian’s Shadow Reflection, which provides the same attack buff at the same cost, provided it is a permenant buff, though cannot double as a removal source.

Magmar has far more Rush minions to abuse such a powerful buff. Heck, Keeper Vaath is centered around abusing Rush minions (Saberspine Tiger, Elucidator, and Makantor Warbeast) just to put into perspective how much rush Magmar can use. These minions are also cheap enough to be played with Thumping Wave on the same turn, unlike Spectral Revenant with Shadow Reflection for example. (Yes, I know Darkfire Sacrifice can make that possible, but it is much more situational and is seen less often if at all, and you need prior setup if it’s Cassyva anyway).Cheaper Rush minions combined with a relatively-cheap buff with that kind of attack increase can make for some tremendous burst potential. I’m sure many of us have felt cheated of wins due to the infamous Elucidator Thumping Wave combo.

So the underlying question is: do you think Thumping Wave is too strong right now? If you think so, what might you suggest for a rework?


Let's discuss Thumping Wave
#2

-For 7 mana Magmar can do 10 damage.Magmar could alway do 10 out of damage with boundlife force.

-Yes it is easier to play around bounded lifeforce than thumping wave elucidator but the damage isn’t out of norm

  • Flash reincarnation makes thumping combo cheaper-well that might be an actually issue but is flash reincarnation not thumping.

-Abyss has had shadow reflection with no real complaints basically Abyss has access to 8 out of hand damage with tiger and dont use it. Which tells me the issue is more elucidator than thumping. Keeper Mag appeared before Thumping wave existence

Ultimately Thumping Wave will be nerf but it won’t be because it is too strong but like Mask of Shadows it creates deck archtype that suck fun out of the game for others.

What would I change? I would make elucidator 7 mana 7/6 or 7/5.That would deal with Keeper rush decks and Thumping Wave issue.You could still do flash reincarnation/Thumping wave/eludicator combo for 12 damage but Magmar can do 15 damage at 9 mana presently.


#3

@kirabi
Definitely true. Bounded Lifeforce was always at that same level of burst. I use the card myself, though I find it more difficult to setup because you have to put yourself in a position to hit the opposing General in the following turn, more specifically to finish them off unless you want to be left vulnerable.

My main concerns come with the reach, and the fact that it requires no prior setup. Bounded Lifeforce requires you being able to get within range of your opponent’s general, and it MUST be a finisher because you’ll be incredibly vulnerable if Bounded Lifeforce does not finish your opponent off, whereas Elucidator Thumping Wave is more flexible. You can play it without having to put your general in harm’s way, and it’s significantly easier to reach your opponent’s general. The 3/3 battle pet can translate into additional damage as well (but it’s easy to play around).

You’re also right that Keeper Vaath has been around even before Thumping Wave was introduced. I think it’s fair to say, though,that the archetype has changed since Thumping Wave was introduced. And yes, Saberspine Tiger with Shadow Reflection didn’t get the hate that Elucidator Thumping Wave gets (Deathfire Cresendo tends to outclass Shadow Reflection), though Elucidator really wasn’t too devastating until Thumping Wave made its debut, so I guess it’s hard to say which is the bigger concern.

I guess I’m saying that I feel like a player should have to truly work for that kind of damage, whether it be cutting the distance between generals, or creating a board presence to enable heavy damage later. That level of damage with such little setup and so few ways to play around it is a little unsettling.


#4

Doesn’t this just mean that every faction can deal up to 10 damage in a burst, if being set to 10hp is an inherently dangerous position? Therefore the issue is either less than you make it out to be or inherently more systemic?

I mean, the same thing happens with artifact Sajj but a million times worse, and the same can go for any Songhai variant (PFs, any backstab + IF), as well as Lyonar (Tiger + Roar + Immo), and Vanar (Tiger + Overdrive, mechs + SotW), and Abyssian has a whole mechanic centered around it (Obliterate, not to mention DFC).

What happened to the “nerf threads around here need a nerf?” thread?


#5

What makes Thumping wave strong is its versatility. Unlike cards like Shadow Reflection and Bounded Lifeforce, Thumping wave does not necessarily need to be played to deal general damage. In a lot of cases, it is simply used as a decent removal spell. What makes this card so powerful is that it is a hard removal card that you can play while you are winning to push damage as well as a damage card that you can play while you are loosing as removal. this versatility makes it far easier to find situations in which it is useful. Removal and minion attack boosts are allowed to be powerful because they can only be played on certain board states that may not arise every game. The versatility of Thumping wave negates this, making it a good card to play in the majority of situations.

For example, Thumping wave is a worse attack boost than Shadow Reflection. However, unlike Shadow reflecrion, thumping wave can remove and dispel large minions. On paper, this card’s removal element is significantly worse than altered beast, yet, unlike altered beast, it is not a dead card against decks without large minions, since you can target your own minions with the attack boost. This versatility makes this card powerful. Instead of one broken effect for 3 mana, this card’d power comes from 2 mediocre effects for 3 mana.

A good hard removal that is also good burst would be exceptionally powerful, boarderline broken even, in almost any CCG, just like the previous version of mana vortex, which was a Cantrip - mana Acceleration. However, I find it very hard to dislike this card since it is so gosh darn cute:


#6

I think it would be interesting if the card summoned the rabbits on a square of your choice 3 turns in a row for 4 mana, or something similar. Fits the name, fits the “zoo” theme of Starhorn, and really, Magmar doesn’t need more ways to SMorc.


#7

Thumping Wave has its downsides

1 . You have to use as a finisher-not to finish the game per say but any card you use on you can’t care about it sticking around.Say you flash out Sunsteel turn one.You can’t use thumping wave the next turn to push an insane amount of damage early.While you can use Shadow Reflection on ramp early Vorpal Reaver.

2.It is overcosted when used as removal compare to other removal of that type.Aspect of the fox is 1 mana and you have complete control of minion.

3.Starhorn and dispel exists,Meaning sometimes that bunny hits you for 6 damage.

4.The transformation effect take place after a turn,so while you can remove big stuff like Amara Healer,Klaxxon or Iron Cliffe.You can’t instantly do something that that turn

Its versatility makes it strong but people like to pretend at times like it without out flaws.It is one of most well balanced cards in reality except for its interaction with Elucidator.And keeper decks this interaction is abused to its fullest.

If you remove elucidator from the equation Thumping wave use would be similar to Abyssian Shadow Reflection.Its versatility doesn’t make more powerful in actual situations when you use it.It is same exact card as shadow reflection when it is use for damage.In terms of cost it statted correctly just like Spectral blade and staff of Ykir are both statted correctly.


#8

#9

Firstly, god damn it not this again, secondly problem with magmar removal is that they’re conditional as hell and depend on position and magmar suck at positioning (try to remove smaller and bigger minon at the same turn, good luck with that). Thumping is a long range way to deal with threats fine you can nerf it but that would kill magmar as it is today, so cpg needs to give magmar good late game finisher like Obliterate (one card for 8 or more dmg to all vs two cards for 1 less mana and two more dmg, I think it’s even).
To be honest I don’t understand why are you complaining about Keepermag, it’s not even the best deck right now and it can fall behind in the early by soooooooo much that sometimes it’s impossible to regain tempo. It’s a glass canon basically. Pesonally I would like to change thumping into “transform a minon into 2/2 battle pet” and give magmar some kind of unconditional finisher cause bounded in just not very good in my opinion.
And lastly i want to say abyssian and songhai have more burst than that so I don’t understand complaining.


#10

Firstly, are you saying that if the deck is not top tier it must not be nerfed? And magmar finishers. Vaaths BBS is a finisher in an of itself. If you want a finisher, just put an earth sphere in your deck. Magmar already has enough removal in plasma storm,egg morph and natural selection. Thumping wave is just used as a better morph. You dont see someone picking morph prior to wave. Morph is just a fourth removal in that case.

You say that keeper magmar CAN have weak early game, but often times it can recover and just burst you down making your general useless as it cant attack anything and has to run from vaath. Its not hard to deal with aggro for magmar using plasma storm, skorn or sister. The problem is that magmar creatures are very strong on their own AND magmar having burst making magmar generally an unhealthy opponent.

I guess thumping wave is a nice card but it as too much burst magmar can abuse. There was a time when abbysian had 4/1 with charge and played shadow reflection and then it got nerfed so now i see the same problem here.

I believe that factions dont need just good cards. They need cards to synergise with each other for decks to be diverse and fun.


#11

I think you haven’t play Keepermag at all. It ALWAYS has very weak early game, skipping 2 turns happens and when it does it’s game over. I understand your point non-meta decks are weak to Magmar in general, but everything else just rekts it. I think people just don’t know how to play against it, I’ve seen some players who knew what’s going to happen and I got rekt by them. Basically the game plan against keeper is to summon a bunch of minions and buff them, usually Magmar cannot deal with it.

There will always be a top tier deck, would you like to nerf everything that is good? And then nerf again? And again? Would you like to play only golem decks? It would be even, right? Or chess that will make Duelyst a chess game.

And you basically ignored my ideas how to change this faction, so yeah, there’s that.


#12

You dont understand the design of the game filosophy. CPG do not want this game to become an oncurve burst simulator. That is not just unfun but unhealthy ofr the game in total.

Due to the roaster of cards magmar has available they will never get more strong cards restricting their archtypes to a single keeper one, which will get nerfed sooner or later, making magmar absolutly unplayable. Is that what you want?


#13

Thumping Wave is the card, together with Makantor, which keeps Magmar alive in the current state of the game. It certainly is a very strong card, but it’s not a problematic card and nerfing it now would kill the faction. If you have troubles with Magmar, force your opponent into using Thumping Wave as a removal, rather than to boost a rush minion. This would likely prevent him from having a reliable closure, since Vaath BBS is not: keep minions in the way and big bad Vaath can’t touch you.

Oh, and stop the nerf threads please :slight_smile:


#14

I don’t understand your logic, I never said that. To be honest I don’t even understand your whole last post call me stupid but are you saying that strong cards will restrict Magmar to only Keeper archetype? Weird assumption in my opinion.


#15

Y’know. The thing that’s frustrating about this is that principal of “power”. Thumping Wave is principally a powerful spell because it’s both removal and a buff in an attacker’s choice game. But, these sort of discussions are based on a flimsy causality assumption

Powerful Card =!= Deserving a nerf

Really. This is card games 101. Much like the Falcius threads, there are too many assumptions drawn between the optimal usage of a card, it’s regular EV, and the misconception that applying nerfs is about removing powerful elements. If there’s anything in Magmar worth reworking, it’s probably Elucidator and Cryssalis Burst- and those aren’t really nerf territory reworks.Smorc Vaath is a feelbad archetype, but that was a thing waaaay before TWave.


#16

Exactly - just because something is powerful, doesn’t mean it needs to be nerfed. I’d much prefer it if people talked about ways to buff less used cards. Thumping wave is a fantastic card, but does have drawbacks. The most notable being you can’t use it to immediately clear taunts, or to buff a friendly minion that you want to keep.


#17

I remember Thumping Wave being lauded as ‘the only good Shim’Zar card for Magmar’ and phew at least Magmar got SOMETHING.

Now it suddenly is OP?

I don’t really agree. Yes, it’s strong, but it’s the ONLY card in entire Magmar that can deal with, say Four Winds Magus at a distance, without having to do something extra. It’s basically what Magmar needs, a way to deal with far away threads.

I guess I wouldn’t mind that much if it was 4 damage instead of 5, but any other change feels too oppressive to me.

I also am not convinced it’s not just flavor-of-the-month but really a problem. If people adjust (Azure Healer, Sun Drop, etc.) it could just be fine again.

Also, might need to wait until the new expansion to see how the balance is after that.


#18

If someone says thumping wave needs to nerf to make Keeper Magmar less bs I get it.The game has precedent to nerf deck not because it was strongest per say but because mask of Shadows songhai because it was bs and unfun to play against.Any Magmar player saying that Keeper isn’t bs is kinda lying to themselves.Keeper rush deck have habit of doing this

Miss your first turn then

Flash Mankantor Warbeast
Keeper Mankantor Warbeast
Keeper Mankantor Warbeast
Mankantor Warbeast
Mankantor Warbeast

When the deck works it is nothing but pure non interaction with board.While it is fun for the Magmar player you can gather why being hit by nothing but rush minions and finished by thumping rush minion is not fun to play against.

I don’t get the “too much burst” thing but I get argument for Rush Keeper being deck style while it is counterable and not the strongest deck.It is ultimately not fun to play against just like it wasn’t fun when a Songhai general backstab you in the back for 16 or 21 damage.

Something needs to happen and last time they nerf the 1 mana diretide like it was issue.And look Keeper rush Magmar has popped up again.It is unhealthy deck style and Thumping wave pushes it damage up on unhealthy style.Elucidator or Thumping wave needs to change but you change thumping wave some expansion in future you will have to deal with Keeper rush again when you give Magmar a decent spell.


#19

KeeperMar is bullshit. But, it’s the only bullshit we have now.


#20

It sounds like people are more concerned about losing that removal option than the actual attack buff, which is fair given that cards like Four Winds Magi, Decimus, Heartseekers with Killing Edge, and Shadow Dancer are real thorns in Magmar’s side. I wouldn’t be opposed to removing the attack buff, and just keeping the transformation component. That’s the part Magmar needs, and the faction would survive with this change. For those who mentioned it, it’s true that Magmar needed consistent heavy removal, and I see now why people are opposed to a nerfing of the card. I still think that the attack buff is abused in the faction, and is not needed for Magmar to thrive, but that kind of removal is something Magmar depends on for certain far-off threats. Every faction should have something to deal with far away threats, (though Vetruvian is still waiting for that answer).