Duelyst Forums

Meta Discussion: Azure Summoning might be most broken card in Duelyst ever

#24

If anyone thinks Azure Summoning is a broken card, all one must do is ask themselves this: “What happens to the combo if I swap Skywing for Wings of Paradise?”

They’re both 3 mana fliers. If Azure Summoning is the offender, then the combo will still be strong if you make this switch. But everyone knows it becomes lackluster if you do this, Heck, even just starting the combo with Dragonlarks before Skywings makes the combo feel bad. The combo is strong ONLY when you start with Skywings. In short, the combo is strong because it’s a pseudo-ramp tool that doesn’t lose card advantage, unlike the other ramp cards in this game. Coincidence that it’s only oppressive in the early game? I think not.

Skywing is the clear offender here. I agree with Smash’s suggestion to change Skywing in the same way Golem Metallurgist got changed: “the FIRST flier you play each turn costs 1 less.” You can still play all of your fliers, but you’ll need 9 mana to do it, and believe me, there are much stronger combos that can be done on 9 mana (thanks Ghost Seraphim + Flawless Reflection because even something as small as 2 Gravity Wells should be answer or lose by 7 mana, but that probably warrants its own discussion)

This combo is just one of many tools in the meta that cheats the mana curve. This meta revolves around ramp. It’s just in disguise. Think about it, Cass cheats out more damage than normally possible thanks to Phantasm. Zirix cheats out Azure Summoning swarms thanks to Skywing. And Faie cheats out…every spell thanks to Ghost Seraphim. I don’t think it’s coincidence that the lesser-played factions don’t have ramp tools (save Magmar, but it comes at the cost of a card AND a weaker minion)

All in all, I don’t want Azure Summoning hit with the nerf hammer. I don’t think it deserves it, and it brings a new style of play to a faction that’s been restricted to Dervishes for months. A little nerf to Skywing is all we need to keep fliers under control while remaining a fun gimmick for players to enjoy.

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#25

If anyone thinks Skywing is a broken card, all one must do is ask themselves this: “What happens to the combo if I swap Azure Summoning for Divine Spark?”

If Skywing is the offender, then the combo will still be strong if you make this switch. But everyone knows it becomes lackluster if you do this

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Or in other words: that logic does not work.

We have here a kind of unique situation where both cards of the combo are rather rubbish on their own, but together have made it into the meta.

I don’t think it’s oppressive, but that’s just my opinion and I am definitely not even close to having the most experience with it.

In any case, Skywing was there loooong before, and just because Azure Summoning is the new card that makes it the prime target for change imo. It just makes sense that the new upstart gets tweaked instead of the familiar old horse.

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#26

The combo is super cool and is really not a problem. Aoe shuts it down pretty hard, even just skorn killing all the larks and keeping skywings from hitting twice is enough.

The only problem is when you go off turn one as player two before most AOE is possible. There is less then a 5% chance of that happening, and even then stuff like grasp, tempest, ghost lightning will do the trick. While the chances to get the cards you need go up drasticly each turn to the point its unlikely to not have it by 6 mana, this is not a problem at that point because it is eating up hand, replace, and deck slots, and is fairly easy to answer.

The deck is powerful and meta relevant if your loosing to it, its either extreme luck on your opponents side, or entirely your fault as you failed to tech for it.

I find it funny that the songhai player who has Zendo and Eternity painter, two infuriating cards, one of which is a solid answer to the combo barring that 5% chance it happens to early, is the one complaining. Pretty much all of songhai is less fair then this combo. If he isnt running ghost lightning, skorn, or the like thats his fault not Azures.

  1. Azure is great and the backbone of the archtype, but it is not to strong.

  2. All that being said, even though it is somewhat rare, the turn one explosive turn is a problem. There is a way to solve this problem without actually nerfing the combo. Make Skywings effect only work on cards summoned near by it as this would prevent excessive globe chaining while keeping the combos power relevant. Either that or changing its mana cost from 0 to 1.

  3. While Songhai are currently not overpowered, they certainly have been before, and the fact that they play solitaire that ignores the board and doesent have counterplay is a problem. Currently the most broken card in Duelyst is Eight Gates. Not because it is overpowered, but because it is completely uncounterable, out of hand damage, that can OTK someone while having no board and not using the board. Thats a combo deck thats a problem, not Azure. It’s always Songhai, or some combination of songhai things that are broken. Sometimes because it’s overpowered, but usually just because it’s uncounterable and toxic.

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Azure Summoning: how is it now that it's nefed?
#27

how is teching healing to counter burn any different from teching aoe to counter swarm? at least in the case of 8 g8s once they combo that is their entire hand and if it isn’t lethal then chances are they lose, unlike with azure.

#28

I get what you mean. Before Azure Summoning was around, flying decks weren’t really a thing, so there would be reason to believe it’s the card to target since flying decks became stronger only after its release.

That said, just because a card came last, doesn’t mean it’s the offender. There are plenty of cards that had been around for ages that had to be changed to keep new cards in check or allow archetypes to grow. Old Shadow Creep would be broken in a game with cards like Sphere of Darkness and Ooz. The change to Flash Reincarnation keeps monsters like Juggernaught and Kraigon in line. Old Mana Vortex (back when it cycled) couldn’t exist in the same game as Firestrorm Mantra. That’s just to name a few.

I’ll ask something else then. Let’s say I don’t swap any cards in the combo. And let’s say I play Azure Summoning, and play a Dragonlark first because it’s my only flier. Then I draw the 2nd Dragonlark. And then the 3rd, and only afterwards do I draw my 3 Skywings. It’s suddenly a 9-mana play. Is it broken as a 9-mana play?

I honestly think there are much stronger plays at that stage of the game, and some decks can have you beat before you even reach that point. That’s why my problem is with Skywing. The combo is only oppressive early in the game when your opponent doesn’t have the mana to answer it. At later stages of the game, it’s no stronger than any other lategame card or combo.

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#29

Because they can easily kill you from full or nearly full, where healing just won’t help much.

I did not complain about them being overpowered, because teching healing can help, which I always do anyways since I hate loosing to aggro.

I am complaining because it is toxic solitaire, without counterplay, that ignores the most fundemental aspect of duelyst, the board. Having very little to do with you and dependent on the spellhais draws.

#30

you call it “toxic solitaire” and yet for the early turns the deck does nothing but try and stabalise the board, how is that anything but interactive? Sure it has a burst finisher at around 8 mana, but how is that any worse than any of the other stuff in the game like rev, decispikes, mechs, titan, and seraphim which are unanswerable just because part of that combo needs to play a minon rather than a spell?

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#31

No offense but i don’t think you are anywhere near objective when it comes to Songhai^^.
I mean i got killed from 21 health yesterday by a Mantra Deck on his 8 mana turn but honestly, that doesn’t mean Songhai is broken or toxic. It just means that my Vale Ascension Ziran Deck is too slow. Had complete board dominance that entire game but still didn’t manage to kill him in 7 turns where he did essentially nothing.

I mean if you think that uninteractive combos are generally toxic, that’s fine. But in my opinion combo decks are a part of card games, a fun part even, and they are always “uninteractive”. Whats the point of putting a combo together if it doesn’t give you an advantage? They are only a problem if the get out of hand and that’s clearly not the case, not with 8 Gates and certainly not with Mantra.

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#32

All of those use the board, have counterplay, don’t outright win on their own, or are liniear.

Gates does none of those, and is consistent and versatile. The fact that it needs to stabilize is the only thing keeping it from being utterly busted. And it does a pretty good job at that considering how versatile it’s cards are.

@baharoth

I love combos and powerful cards. I am right here defending Azure and everything else Blob mentioned. But a combo needs to have counterplay and use the board like all of those do. Gates doesent. And again I have not complained about it being over powered, but simply toxic and out of place in duelyst. It is considered one of the top decks after the big 3, and it is utterly infuriating.

#33

I would very much like to know the counterplay to flash deci double spikes, a 4 card 8 mana combo dealing 18 damage across the board, more than what 8 g8s can do at the same card/mana cost. not to mention it doesn’t even lose card advantage in teh process.

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#34

That is the only one of the carts you mentioned that I dislike. That would be the “liniear” thing I mentioned.

It is not versatile, it feeds your opponents cards, and costs you a decent amount of life as well so it’s at least fair. The situation you mentioned is an exceedingly rare one rather than common place as it is in gates. You are conviently overlooking the massive drawbacks of both pulling off and doing said thing, where as I have seen gates do more, frequently, without giving me cards or taking damage.

Then there is also the fact that it’s one of the few things that makes starhorn good and magmar is far from dominant at the moment so it’s really not a problem.

And the rest of your call outs do not come anywhere near the burst potential, have plenty of counterplay, and use the board.

1 Like
#35

Some quick ideas, I guess there are more elaborate ones, but just taking 30sec to answer :

  • Kill opponent before 8 mana
  • Have a Decimus on your side (if Magmar)
  • Hundred-Handed Rakushi Sentinel (if Songhai)
  • Concealing Shroud (if Vanar)
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#36

This is a silly argument to make, the combo is still by your definition toxic, even if it is the only thing keeping starhorn in the game. You are also still complaining about mantra while it is significantly further from being strong in this meta.

seraphim frequently causes huge bursts of damage from very small boardstates, mech cannot be killed by all but a few cards, rev does face damage regardless of what it hits and can be buffed to silly levels by phantasm for more damage tha8 g8s/spikes, and titan creates boardstates that are impossible to recover.

something fairly important to ask at this point is what does using the board even mean? is it stoping your opponent from interacting via body blocking? playing minions? using removal? knowing what you mean by this is vital if this discussion is going to go anywhere.

1 Like
#37

Flash
Decimus
Spikes
Spikes
BBS

20 damage

Eight gates
Rock hurl
Phoenix fire
Phoenix fire BBS
Mantra

Death

Big difference.

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#38

the other big difference is one of them cost 12 mana :wink:

6 Likes
#39

Yea, by my definition it is still toxic. But again I think its fair due to being linear and not of really comparable burst or consistency. If you get starhorn low enough on life he just cant do it…unlike the many times I have lost to a reva at one health while I was close to full. Silly arguement or not, its just one more reason why its ok and Gates is not.

Seraphims burst is small and reliant on which side of the board she is on, and or on establishing an answerable board first, both of which you can play around and is again a fraction of the burst potential. Yea Vanar is a touch strong right now, but that is mostly Luminous Charge and Flawless fault, not ghost, and again you can tech to deal with those.

I am also not particularly fond of Phantasm but you have every chance to react to, play around, and make sure you have an answer for it, and its a fringe case it multi buffs a rush minion, tiger is more of an issue then phantasm is. Rush in general can be played around with good positioning, provoke, and nightwatcher, and all rush minions use the board, and have fairly low stats to their mana costs so they are pretty fair, and again a fraction of the burst potential.

There are tons of ways to answer Mechazor, most of which are versatile cards that you ought to include anyways. Titan means your deck is handicapped without spells, is very position focused, and is reliant on developing an answerable field.

Using the board means anything you mentioned, or anything that is position oriented…not being to picky about that. Gates uses none of them.

Powerlevel alone is not the main reason why cards are broken. A faction can have (and pretty much all do) several very powerful cards and not be a problem if they are not dominating the meta, and or there are good ways to play around them. Gates reva is meta relevant, is not linear, and is unacounterable. Its a problem.

#40

I wouldn’t include mantra in that list. But replace that mantra with one or two extra cheap spells and or a spear that can be equiped prior, and it is comparable or more damage for simmilar cost and number of cards, is easier to assemble since you have a ton of ways to put that together rather then needing 4 specific cards, and is a deck that is better at whittling down your opponents health.

Then dont forget the deci/spikes is also effectively 14 damage since that 6 health swing towards yourself is a huge deal, and often means you are not even able to do said combo even if you have it, on top of if they are not dead they now have a full hand.

One is fair, one is not.

#41

there are actually a couple ways to counter gates, force the use of burst cards to clear your board or stay above the amount of burst they have.

as for using the board, you didn’t really help me understand your position here. Does removal count as using the board? is it simply anything you can play around? or it it just limited to minions moving about and being played?

#44

I think I’ll open an “interactivity” thread so we can continue discussion there since I think we’ve veered away from Azure Summoning at this point. Definitely an interesting point of discussion. :grinning:

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#45

That has to be sarcastic. Literally no one has ever used abjudicator, the 3 drop to get any kind of good mantra combo, and can’t see that it has to be taken into account because you would always be using it? Okay.