Duelyst Forums

Meta Discussion: Azure Summoning might be most broken card in Duelyst ever

After watching Smashing Things (Smash the hamster) video “Why Azure Summoning needs a rethink (rant)”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt0gWDAUYaY

I was inspired to make this thread because he said one of most “clickbaitest” things in video which I used as title of the thread. Since Smash is not the type to self promote his stuff. I figured one of things I can do help the duelyst community is promote good streamers and youtubers when it makes sense to do so. So watch the video and leaves likes on the video. So with that out of the way

Azure Summoning

Type: Spell

Rarity: Epic

Set: Unearthed Prophecy

Cost: 0

Effect:
Whenever you summon a minion with Flying from your action bar this turn, draw a minion with Flying from your deck.

Smash does a good job of breaking down the issues of the card and has many good points which are great for discussion but since some people won’t click on video and watch it.Here some points/Questions to discuss

  1. What do you think about the card Azure summoning and the Vet decks that use them? Do you think Azure Summoning is reason that the deck is so strong?

  2. What changes (if any) do you think should happen to the card?

  3. What is the most broken card in Duelyst ever ?

1 Like
  1. Fine. Yes, Azure summoning is the whole key/cornerstone of the deck type. I mean, I tried a similar deck with Nosh-Rak and Skywings before and though I had some wins this card makes it meta-potential, it was meme from me before.

  2. None.

  3. Probably beta stuff.

2 Likes

1.) I think the card itself is a good way to push more archetypes into Duelyst, but I do believe that the card is (more often than not) busted. However, I don’t this is necessarily due to just Skywing + Dragonlark (although Skywing is a big enabler imo). The Vetruvian faction has two main cards that benefit like crazy off of this flying swarm (Inner Oasis and Grandmaster Nosh-rak) that makes the combo an answer-or-die situation, especially with the latter card. Furthermore, the swarming nature of the flying deck has makes the deck have a lot of synergy with Vetruvian’s golem shell, giving you a good swarm basis for the deck and multiple ways to swarm the board against AoE (plus Celebrant giving you more ramp options for your flying combo). With these two archetypes combined, these Vet decks have multiple ways to thin their deck (Dreamshaper and Azure Summoning), multiple ways to swarm (Golem and Flying), and multiple pay-off cards (Inner Oasis and Nosh-Rak). However, I will say that Azure Summoning is very much the Vetruvian version of Trinity Oath, yet the synergy and resources each faction has separates the power level of these two.

2.) I would either increase the cost of Skywing to 4 (yet keep the same stats and effect), increase the cost of Azure Summoning to 1, and/or give Skywing the Metallurgist effect (as suggested by Smash in his video).

3.) For me, it’s hard to say. Circulus was pretty busted during the Vanar meta. Blue Conjurer can still be kinda busted now, and especially back in Vanar meta. Thumping wave at 3 mana also put a lot of aggro and burst into the meta, and we had 7 mana Variax and the ability to use Flash Reincarnation multiple times into a Juggernaught. A card being broken depends on its environment, and with the ever-shifting environment of Duelyst, I cannot say with certainty that Duelyst has had 1 card that was more broken than any other broken card introduced into the game.

4 Likes

Don’t change Skywing, that card was pure meme before Azure Summoning and I enjoyed it rarely, but still enjoyed it in its role.

I dislike it when they bring a new card and suddenly people clamor to change the old card, because I liked playing with it as it was (it happened a few times).

Edit: I think cards which require a deck specifically tailor-made to make them shine should be nerfed WAY AFTER cards that shine in almost any deck they’re thrown into.

10 Likes

The Flying Vetruvian deck is very inconsistent, but it can get crazy openers. It’s purely dependent on the luck of the draw, which is why I would like to see the card killed, rather than for its power level. The only thing I like of the card is that it tries to promote something different in the Vetruvian playstyle.

2 Likes

Not disregarding your opinion or experience, but the players playing against the actually good azure lists would find this comment amusing.

You need to think of it less as a combo and more of a 9 card value engine you add to your deck to supplement it’s already good gameplan.

Not only is Azure super consistent from as early as 5 mana upwards, but when frequently cast earlier than that it seriously hamstrings your opponents options while have virtually no drawback to yourself, either in cards or tempo lost.

Even answering the combo often doesn’t matter due to how games tend to play out. All you do by having AoE is timewalking yourself and passing priority back to the Vetruvian player. This is doubly important since it leaves you, depending on your initial response, on the backfoot for the rest of the game.

7 Likes

So i actually went through the trouble of watching almost the entirety of the video which certainly stays true to being a rant. I think it would have been better to not make the video as it seems directly after a massive loss streak.

Regarding the topic itself i have to say i don’t see Azure Summoning as an outstanding problem, not even close to being the most broken card in Duelyst. Yes, depending on both players draws it can create board states that are almost impossible to come back from. If this deck goes off turn 1 then yeah, your probably fucked and there is little you can do about it. But how often does this happen?

I’ve played around 20 games with the deck since the combo became popular and faced it even more often on ladder and i haven’t seen a turn 1 or even turn 2 “go off” in a single one of these games. I am not even sure there have been turn 3 “go offs”, if there were i can probably count them on one hand. The fact that the deck can outpace it’s answers is certainly true, but it’s incredibly rare, just as rare as a Bloodsworn Gambler OTK probably.

What does the deck do on average? You get a bunch of minions out somewhere around 6 mana, half of them have 1 health. At this stage of the game almost every deck in the meta has ways to nullify that play. Smash seems to be thinking that just wiping the entire board with one card isn’t a counter because it’s just a 1 for 1 but i think it’s at least an answer, and depending on the situation it might leave the Vet player in dire trouble as you might still have minons on board while he wasted his entire turn. Further more, going of on 6 mana is only possible if you have a Skywing in hand along with Summoning. Starting the combo with Dragon Larks increases it’s mana cost to 7-9 mana. From my experience, on average, pulling of the combo happens more around 7-8 mana, not around 6.

Generally Smash says the combo is incredibly consistent which doesn’t really match my experience at all. I had tons of games where i had to start with Dragon Lark as a turn 1 play or a Dreamgazer. The deck has 12 one or two mana drops but only 6 two drops that you want to play turn one. It’s also a combo deck utilizing 2 different combos that have absolutely no synergy with each other except from drawing out AOEs. Sirocco is pretty garbage if you didn’t get to play a bunch of Golems early on. The flyers themselves are also kinda crappy without Azure Summoning to go off. Have a bunch of Flyers + Sirocco in hand in the early/Midgame and you might as well concede because the deck does nothing worthwhile. Having to play sirocco at 5 mana with almost no prior Golems because it’s still the best play to make feels really bad and i had that kind of situation quite a few times.

In terms of counterplay, outside of just AOE, there is also smart play regarding the manatiles. To go off early on the deck requires as many manatiles as it can get, just deny them those and you can delay the combo drastically. Even if you can’t use the mana yourself, just take them to deny them access.

The replays provided are also not really convincing. The build he was running wasn’t exactly good for the meta imo. From what i saw from his deck it should have a nearly impossible matchup against Wall Vanar sporting both Pando and Thunderhorn. It’s matchup against Swarm Vet is also horrible, but this has little to do with the Flying combo. Yeah in the first replay there was little he could have done, except maybe not replacing that Pando. But what lost him the game wasn’t the Azure Combo. He cleaned it off and still had 5 cards left in hand, more than his opponent. Don’t really get why he says it costed him to many cards. What killed him were the 2 Siroccos afterwards. His deck has simply no effective way to deal with multiple swarm generators, meaning he is destined to lose the long game.

That being said, i think the second game shows a generally flawed approach to the matchup. He was playing for board control the entire game, something that simply cannot work in the long run. He should have played much more aggressively. Just as in the first game, the combo wasn’t really his downfall. The EMP was. Leaving him with 3 useless 1/1 scattered around the board, a dispelled 2/3 and a 3 card hand consisting entirely of spells. He had an answer to the Emp but literaly any other threat played by the Vet player who still had 5 cards in hand would have been an almost guaranteed loss. Aymara, another EMP, Sirocco whatever.

Funny enough, he could have won that game. After the EMP hit he said he was still in a winning position which imo wasn’t true at all. He had no significant board and a smaller hand. But because of that he kept playing for board instead of just going for the kill. OBS the EMP, MDS Heathseeker to clear the Derwish, hit his general with your own, MDS Fox to hit his General bringing him down to 3 at which point everything from Phenix Fire, over Calligrapher to Zendo would have been a clear win. Not to mention that the vet player still had a Fox in his face that he can’t clear with his board.

6 Likes

To be honest, my experience with the card is very limited, so your opinion may be more informed than mine. Based on my experience, the card is broken when played in the early turns, giving room for OTKs. It doesn’t happen often enough to be a major problem, but it’s unfun.

When used in the late game, my decks have been able to deal with it. There may be better deck lists or players around, but my feeling is that the card enables boring one-card combos without being broken by itself.

2 Likes

In a vacuum you’d be right, but think for a moment outside of the assumption that this is a “combo”. The deck isn’t built around going off on t2, going off that early is simply a possibility. Even when used on 9 mana this issue isn’t that it’s answerable, it’s that your absolute best case scenario answer still costs the other player no cards or resources or 1at most.

This is such a crucial point to focus on as unlike Plasma against Songhai or Abyssian, answering the combo in as efficient way as possible is still only a 1 for 1 trade and frequently taxes the same removal you’d need for common follow up plays such as Siroccos.

This is comparable with Lillithe being able to swarm the board but retain card advantage, and that is a ridiculous notion to entertain.

My main issue is simply that, and I echo Smash here, due to the mechanics in Duelust, though I’d put greater emphasis on replace than fatigue, not only is this complimentary engine consistent, but it has very little to no drawbacks in tempo to the user, even when answered in as efficient a manner as possible.

4 Likes

I see your point, very well explained.

Still, my experience is the only way I can reliably judge the card for now. I may go through the video at some point to see it in action a little bit more and only then comment on again.

Just one addition to my previous answer: I think also @baharoth has a point when he mentions that most minions on those decks are bad in isolation. If this is true, and I think it is, playing more aggressively could be the right strategy.

1 Like

I’ve tried the flying vet combo myself, I’ve never tried to optimise the deck tho.

The main problems I see with this card is:

  1. You can pull the combo out before 5 mana aoe is available (as mentioned by others)
  2. Ideally, the combo is pulled out in a single turn. So the combo might never show up, or suddenly be right in your face. Unlike Sirocco, this combo has no built-up warning to it.
  3. It can very well be an answer of die situation by mixing with nosk-rak. It is capable of threatening OTK from across the board. All this for 6 mana, although dilutes its ability to pull off as a P2T1 play.

Although I did notice 1 notable flaw about the deck. Combining flying combo along with the golem deck usually takes up massive room, leaveing you with very little room for removal. I’ve been blown out multiple times because I had no reactive options in my hand.

1 Like

This is almost card for card this seasons Srank 1 Vet Combo decklist

TRw31bZ_d

Notice how I both have draw, anti aoe, and removal, both reactive and proactive.

Space isn’t the issue from a deckbuilders standpoint. The 9 cards needed for this engine is really not a taxing restriction for this particular archetype.

4 Likes

Interesting, I guess I just personally prefer to fit more reactive options? I found myself often trying to fit 3x rasha or tigers, also been playing around with lightbender for walls.

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The card probably isn’t consistent enough to actually warrant a nerf, nor is it a meta-dominating issue. However, the few times I did come up against it, it certainly was unfun. Azure summoning, plus skywing, plus 2 dragon larks had me struggling for an answer. Needless to say, I lost the game by turn 6 to an embyrwyrm. I even took care of all those skywings. Azure summoning, probably couldn’t take a serious nerf to it, but I do feel that it requires some tuning. It definitely enables interesting deck types in vet, and for that I do feel it is great, but as a slightly more consistent and less ‘memey’ edition of twin fang kujata decks, it probably warrants some corrections. 1 mana probably makes it unplayable. I would say let it live. It’s not a terrible threat to the meta. To quote some dead guy, Live and let others memes live.

1 Like

Variants of the deck have been s-1 and won tournaments with many different pilots, how much more consistant and meta dominating can you get?

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I like to compare Azure Summoning to Alabaster Titan in that they both give you a single massive pressure play at the cost of putting garbage in your deck. However, while the effect is arguably worse than Titan, the Azure Summoning play is much less taxing. The cost to the Azure combo is having 9 cards in your deck that are useless outside of the combo. However, since it is possible to combo off early, you can negate that price with a good hand. Furthermore, you actually condense your deck, making it better, after playing your payoff, unlike Alabaster and Mechazor where you have to continue to play suboptimal cards after the payoff.

The Azure combo is not oppressive at 6+ mana, since you will have drawn a lot of dead cards before that point and 5-6 mana is around the time most board clears come out. However, playing it early not only nets you 15/12 worth of stats, but also gets rid of combo pieces clogging your deck and costs releatively few cards. While the combo itself is not the most broken, it lets you get around a major drawback of most combo decks; drawing dead combo pieces after you pull off the combo.

Additionally, I would like to point out how similar all the Azure Summoning decks are. Nearly all the ones I’ve seen are running exactly the deck @eurasianjay posted, except maybe with different numbers of each spell, or Rasha’s curse / Sandswirl reader subbed in. The fact that this deck seems to have been optimized so quickly leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Honestly, I would not so much nerf it as rework it into something entirely different. While the deck does seem busted, it’s not any more powerful than Cassy or Faie, so I don’t expect the card to be nerfed unless Vet gets really out of hand.

Also, there’s no way that Azure Summoning is as heinous as the old 3rd wish. No bloody way. I still stand that Juxtaposition is the strongest card in a Duelyst, but I love that card and it isn’t really oppressive, or unfun.

P.S:
Why are you people saying that clearing this with Frost Burn or Plasma Storm is 1 for 1!? It’s clearly 2 for 1 you dingdongs!

4 Likes

You have 5 cards in hand.
Opponent has 5 cards in hand.
Opponent plays Azure Summoning (4).
Opponent plays 4 flying minions (4).
You play Plasma Storm (4)

-> 1 for 1

If opponent plays the last flying in their deck, then yes, they just lost 1 card extra.

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… I guess I’m the dingdong…

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Playing the last flying minion doesn’t draw a card. The vet would presumably play all their flying minions in the deck leaving them at three cards. Plasma Storm is a +1 in card advantage assumming the vet player doesn’t hold the last flier.

And who shows restraint when playing Azure Summoning?

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I’m not sure about nerfing as. But smash mentioned changing the deck size to make fatigue relevant and that could be interesting. Especially if you change the number of allowed copies per card. And kept the drop rates the same. And gave me $40.

1 Like