Meltdown: do you like it?


#1

Hi, guys. I wonder what is your feeling about Meltdown. I don’t mean its power level, but its design. Do you like it?

My impression is that Meltdown is very bad for the game. Though it might not be the most popular card around, it does ruin close games thanks to the massive swings that its RNG effect can produce. Also, this effect completely ignores positioning, which makes the card even dumber.

Red Synja has the sams stats and cost, but its effect is limited by positioning and much less random. Overall, I like that card design better and I don’t really understand why Meltdown was printed in the first place.

So, what is your opinion about Meltdown?

  • I love the card!
  • I hate the card!
  • I’m neutral to the card

0 voters


#2

It was probably printed because it’s a fairly unique wincon in a sense that to use it effectively you’re supposed to go late game while simultaneously keeping the board in preparation for the moment where you drop the card. Other than such decks being rare and fairly difficult to pilot properly, there is also quite some decision making when it comes to using the card itself. You may say it’s all about just dropping it on 8 mana and hoping it hits what you want and I say it’s way more than that, mostly about calculated risks. Card isn’t problematic in a sense of being too good by itself (like for example Ragnaros is in HS, and yeah, I still laugh at people comparing Meltdown to it) and so far is exclusively only used in the types of decks I described which is a good thing.

Comparing the card to Synja makes sense I guess but despite their similarities they are used in entirely different decks with different purposes. I guess doing that also gives you an excuse to use “it ignores the board” argument which I just fail to grasp. Game is designed purposely so not everything interacts with the board because if it did, it would make the board state irrelevant just as the opposite scenario where nothing interacts with it but whatever, it’s a topic for another time.

Anyway yeah, I like the card. It produced interesting decks and playstyles and if someone has to die to it’s RNG as a result of it, so be it. I just wish people complained about it’s RNG when actually seeing it in action rather than just doing it because they’ve read the card text and complaining about things one has no experience with is a meta thing to do.

If the card was good enough to put in your average midrange deck to finish of the curve, then I’d heavily dislike it. That doesn’t seem to be the case however so all I can do is appreciate all the new decks people are making purely to draw out the cards maximum potential.


#3

I respect your opinion, but do you mind commenting more on why the card should not be compared to Ragnaros? It looks very similar to me and I have always hated the RNG swing introduced by the card.

About the rest of your message: I do see what you are implying. If a control deck can ensure the enemy board is relatively free, Meltdown can act as a win condition. However, I have seen in my games a flash reincarnated Meltdown hitting face for 7 damages against an aggro deck. More in general, I have seen matches decided by the target of Meltdown, which I find frustrating. I’m not calling for a nerf, just saying I don’t like the card and I’m curious about other players.


#4

Because Ragnaros is in HS which is an entirely different game. It has no board. Minions’ power level in relation to their mana cost is different. Mana system works differently and promotes a faster game. There’s lots of things going on here. Try to think why midrange decks in HS can afford finishing of their curve with a 8 drop that targets a random character while in duelyst you have to build a specific deck around it. You might come up with even more reasons.

I don’t see your point here.

Calculated risks, like I mentioned. I’ve also seen matches decided by people aggressively replacing instead of playing safe and winning of top decks. I’ve seen zyx spawn in perfect location in order to prevent a lethal and buy a turn for the enemy to win. It’s all RNG implications, Meltdown’s is quite obvious and I see why people dislike it because of it though. But again, I think it’s worth it as it’s a fairly uncommon card only used within certain, newly developed archetypes.


#5

The card seems expensive and not all too reliable. Look at the other units you can get for seven mana (and let’s be honest, this card costs 8). As for the random factor? I do not mind it one bit. Randomness and the variance it provides are healthy for cards like this, and it will give us more varied board states. Also, it is not on every card. The better player will still win most frequently.

I would also like to state that I do not get the hate for the perceived randomness. Every game that works with a deck of cards has this. Every single one. It is inherent in the design, as the order of the cards that you draw for a turn are entirely random. And this is a good thing the way it is implemented. The randomness introduces more interesting games, and it is almost never the kind of randomness where you get to flip a coin and win a game you should have lost.


#7

It’s being overused now :slight_smile: I’m getting bored of the card. It’s not good in a control deck I think.


#8

With regards to design, it looks amazing! I’m just surprised that it’s that color though. I figured that it would have a color scheme similar to Red Synja (I guess because having the word “melt” in your name suggests it should have a warm color tone). Maybe CPG knew it would be run in Vanar so they matched the colors to the faction. :laughing: Nonetheless, it looks intimidating, and its effect shares that intimidation factor.

Do I like the effect? No. Why? Because I don’t think that such a strong effect should be left to RNG. I think it takes away from being skilled at the game when you can simply roll the dice with this card to potentially steal games. RNG is fine when the effects aren’t too strong like when drawing cards (Sworn Sister, Xho) or getting a certain spawn (Jaxi, Sarlac, Gor, Iron Dervish). I know that once in a blue moon, a spawn or randomly-drawn card can decide a match. It’s just that 7 damage is such a consistently steep effect, and I think that much power should be kept out of RNG’s grasp.


#9

Ragnaros and Meltdown are comparable in the sense that one can play it against an opponent who has several minions on board and is about to win as a last Hail Mary and with a slim chance hit face and win against all odds. These moments feel very unsatisfying. Losing to that feels just dumb and infuriating and winning feels undeserved.

On the other hand I can see the positive aspect that Meltdown is not a generally good finisher like Ragnaros which fits in most decks, and one has to build a deck around it.

One solution would be to make it only go face if there are no enemy minions on board by changing the card text to something like ‘Blood Surge: Deal 7 damage to a random enemy minion or, if the enemy has no minions, to the enemy general.’.


#10

I’m Neutral to it because its a Neutral minion

hahahaha


#11

Firstly, the sprite is amazing. It is an Evangelion Reference. Enough said.

Secondly, the effect seems fine as it, if not a bit boring. If I am in a position to spend a whole turn developing a 7 drop, racing for damage is usually not my priority. Playing this just for the sake of dealing face damage seems more like a desperation play and would most likely backfire.

However, this ability seems boring because it feels very very similar to Red Synja. Both are 7/7 that deal 7 with the right condition. This seems like a repeat of an old design. Perhaps:

7 mana 7/7
Bloodsurge: your Bloodborn spell triggers three times

(Ex, Argeon gives a minion +6 attack, Kaleos moves one three times, Zirix summons 3 2/2s, etc.)


#12

I’d rather the designers use the awesome art assets for something with a little more play to it, but being blunt- if you get blown out by Meltdown, you were already losing- and probably pretty hard. Every faction has access to fatties with considerably more utility- where I would rather the card reflect the art’s nod to the “Berserker Mode Eva 1”.

It’s really a shame that the designers haven’t found the sweet spot for an exciting neutral fattie that interacts with BBSes, but doesn’t push one faction to hard- so we get stuck with Mr. Slow-Mc-Worse-Than-Every-Other-Minion-In-It’s-Set.

Really, the design hill here to be surmounted is simply “what does neutral mean in terms of flavor and mechanics?” or rather- “How do we make exciting neutrals without making more Saberspine Tigers and Krons?” To which my answer is just “Neutrals should either be tech, draw engines, or wear buff spells well”, but I’m not sure the designers agree with that since they keep adding neutral speedfloors like Meltdown and Quartermaster Gauj


#13

i think it’s honestly better than rag. it definitely has similarities but you can A) control when the effect goes off, leading to more control over the rng and B) it can attack in addition to the effect. so it does 7 damage the turn it comes out and 14 for every other turn not counting cryptographers and such


#14

I agree with you. Also, it’s by far more annoying than Rag exactly because we are playing a game with a board. In Hearthstone, the best strategy against Rag is keeping your fingers crossed and hope it hits the wrong target. In Duelyst, the effect of most minions can be mitigated by proper positioning. What I don’t like of Meltdown, besides the randomness, is that it may have an immediate powerful impact which totally disregards positioning.

I also don’t buy the argument that the card is not useful as a desperation play. Yes, the card can be strong in control decks, but it can also act as a powerful desperation play driven by RNG. Close games can be decided by the target of Meltdown, which is not good, especially because the only way to play around it is having many minions on the board. However, in that case it’s very likely that the game is not really close, right?

I see the card as a massive RNG swing which can decide games. Not many, but still enough to be annoying for anyone who likes to play slower decks. I don’t think the amount of skill in Duelyst is reduced by the presence of Meltdown. Still, I hope no more cards with such powerful RNG effects will be printed in the future. That’s just personal taste.


#15

2 Meltdown, 3 target on board, 1 BBS, dead enemy general


#16

I’m against it, honestly. Not only is it RNG, but it spits on the very concepts that duelyst was based around. A board and positioning. You can drop Meltdown in a corner and it can still smack the enemy General in the face. And theres nothing they can do about it but hope they have enough minions to make the odds better. If it could only hit a nearby enemy, or an enemy on the same row/column as it, it’d be a lot more fair. As it stands now, it’s just a disappointing decision by CPG.


#17

The card has exactly the randomness I don’t want to see in Duelyst:
A strong random effect.
I’m not a big fan of randomness and I’m not exactly a hater of randomness because I think a game like this has to have random effects to keep the games itself more diverse.
Luckily the cards Mana cost distract people from using it in this fast Meta. If CP manages to get the game being slower somewhere in the future this thread may become more significant in the future. But I’ve seen the card exactly two times. That’s not what I call “produced interesting decks”. Nor “being relevant”.

This might be different in S-Rank. But the better the players the less random cards they play (that’s right as a rule of thump, or?) - so I don’t think so.

This card has it’s time in future I think. In a slower Meta.


#18

The catch here- is that you have to play Meltdown in your deck. A 7 mana minion that only does something when you use your bloodborn spell. Rather, which faction can fit this into their decks? Which situation can you setup to even make this card good?

Ragnaros works autonomously- with 7 mana, you play Meltdown, and the opponent runs their material into your face, then MAYBE Meltdown nukes the thing you need to nuke the next turn- and THEN if your opponent isn’t killed in the next turn, they have an entire other turn to run material into your face or answer Meltdown. Magmar has Decimus Combo that is far more reliable and card/mana efficient for flash tricks (not to mention that it fights with Makantor slots.) Abyssian has Variax and Revenant who are both WAY better and guarantee value. Vetruvian’s 5-8 slots are all slow- but significantly more likely to be check plays than Meltdown. Vanar has Ancient Grove, Embla, Aspect of the Mountain, and many far more reliable tempo plays. Lyonar has Elyx, Z’ir, Solarius, Excelsious, Songhai has Spiral Technique and Zendo. All factions have Ruby Rifter (which gives cardflow too!), Kron, Pandora, Grincher, and Khymera which are all waaaay more likely to actually take over the game.

Wait til you have 7 mana? You have to deal with every card listed and then a few. Meltdown is a novelty.


#19

Theres a few key points though

  1. Ragnaros can’t activate multiple times a turn. Meltdown can.

  2. Ragnaros can’t attack. Meltdown can.

  3. You somehow completely missed the point. Meltdown ignores everything that Duelyst was meant to bring over Hearthstone. It ignores positioning and brings bad rng. It doesn’t matter how good or bad it is. It matters that it shouldn’t exist in its current state.


#20
  1. You need Cryptographer, an enabler card- meaning you spend more cards to go off- when you could just be playing better cards to make them dead.

  2. Ragnaros effectively has haste- and nukes something immediately. Meltdown either has to be protected or played right up on the opponent to pressure them into using an answer. In either mode, it’s trash.

  3. This is a moralistic argument about how the game “should” and “should not” be- there is no substance to it. Duelyst has plenty of anti-positioning littered all over the place; we can only observe the game as it is- not as we wish it to be. Plasma Storm, White Widow, Whiplash, Bloodrage Mask, Ranged etc. All of it exploits ignoring your opponent’s positioning- and whether that’s disagreeable or not is irrelevant until the devs want to have a discussion about it.


#21

Now I’m genuinely confused. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Because if so, I have no interest in it. There is literally no morals involved. The entire premise, Duelyst’s entire stand, is that there is a board. That decisions should involve positioning and strategy rather than RNG. That is the difference between Duelyst and Hearthstone.

Now note that of all the examples you picked out, only ONE fits the description of ‘RNG’ and ‘Lack of positioning’. White Widow. And it does 2 damage. Effective, but not game changing. 2 damage can’t even kill many 2 drops. 7 damage is nearly 1/3 of a general’s health. That is VERY impactful.