Make ILLUSIONS not Arcanyst

[mrmana3]

The only real problem with Illusions being Arcanysts, in my eyes, is that they get buffed by Owlbeast Sage. If that wasn’t a concern, I think people would be fine with Illusions being Arcanysts. The only other cards that get assistance from Illusions being Arcanysts are Trinity Wing, Kindling, and Night Shroud which I don’t think people have complaints about.

The threat of Illusions getting bigger is what makes their being Arcanysts a neusence. It’s the same reason ANY minion from the Arcanyst tribe can be such a threat.

[phayze]

Sounds like you didn’t spend much time thinking of constructive criticism.

Veni vidi vici

[owlington]

I didn’t make an entirely new topic based on my laziness. Oh and I never said I was giving constructive criticism. But op did list his as a suggestion however.

[theodindude]

Ok, not trying to be rude and pardon me if none of you were

But

I clearly stated I understand it can be said both ways of why an “image” or “illusion” is an Arcanyst but due to them being/belonging to this tribe causes, in my opinion, a level of unfairness of them becoming too strong/overpowered.

So

I decided to make a suggestion
Which was to make them their own tribe

Maybe make them just a simple minion, no tribe
Or
A unique tribe of their own

I understand that the creators like when people are creative with decks and like allowing people to build decks that have synergy. So making them just a minion, no tribe, would decrease the chances of synergy.

This is the point of this post.

By putting this on forums I expected people to come up with their suggestions and have a discussion.

Not guess how much thought I put into this, which I find insulting as I did think about it before posting.

That being said
I would like to thank everyone for responding to the post

I’m leaning towards making them their own tribe oppose to being tribeless and maybe in the future come up with interesting synergies.

[owlington]

I apologize for coming across rude but when I see a suggestion thread I expect to see some suggestions. Like in your example I expected to see some card designs or maybe some alterations to existing cards to help support this Illusion tribe instead of you explaining why having illusions as arcanyst is overpowered. What if the new illusion class was made overpowered as well?

(I know I sound sarcastic again but I mean no ill will mate. It’s just how I talk)

[fispan]

As mentioned somewhere else I like the idea of owlbeast buffing defense only by one point. That may fix the arcanyst problem

[eurasianjay]

There is no archanyst problem. Don’t confuse the latest Vanar shell as being anything but a product of their faction and the direction it’s been taking for a long time now.

[thedandygiraffe]

Yeah, sorry, I worded this poorly. What I meant is that illusions shouldn’t be arcanysts; making them into a whole new tribe seems quite unnecessary indeed.

[thedandygiraffe]

Er, there is? Owlbeast’s ability to take a 2/1 swarm to 2/9s in a single turn? Conjurer’s ability to pull powerful out-of-faction cards with some ridiculous rift-like synergies? The general shift away from the board and towards burst (because arcanysts rely on spells)?

Van is the main issue, sure, but we definitely have an Arcanyst problem as well.

@mrmana3, as you’ve said it yourself, they also provide bond fodder, which quite often means that you can’t deny your opponent his bond effects (which, as I understand it, undermines the whole idea behind bond). Trinity Wing for example is a well-balanced, interesting card, which may become a bit OP when its effect is effectively an opening gambit rather than bond.

[eurasianjay]

Except you could remove Owlbeast completely and the deck would function almost exactly the same. The game has been moving to out of hand burst long before Faie started dominating the metagame.

A handful of archanyst are overtuned, but Owl hasn’t been a particular problem card before and isn’t abused in any other faction which leads me to believe the bigger offender here is the faction it’s currently being abused in rather than the card itself.

The fact that outside of Vanar these archanysts see frightfully little play is very telling.

As to the proposed change itself, I’m against it, if only because it’s a poor, hamfisted attempt at fixing a sequence of plays and does nothing to address the actual gameplay issues with either Circulus or Owlbeast.

[thedandygiraffe]

It isn’t abused in any other faction because most people who run Arcanyst do it in Van… Besides, I’ve seen it abused quite a few times in Arcanyst Lilithe as well.

As for the proposed change, well, there’s quite a few things it would not solve - it would not increase consistency in keywords/descriptions (which is an actual gameplay issue to quite a few people), it wouldn’t make Burnhorn more interactive, it wouldn’t nerf Lavaslasher… But it doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea. There’s no reason for the illusions to be arcanysts, it’s simple as that. Saying something should not be improved “because there are other priorities” is quite an odd thing to say unless you’re a dev.

[mrmana3]

@thedandygiraffe
I guess if Illusions remain Arcanysts, it prevents developers from making more Bond effects (among other things) for Arcanysts without them being abused due to the Illusions’ tribal tag.
@eurasianjay
Owlbeast Sage, without even being in play, creates a sense of urgency for the opponent. Unlike against Swarm Abyssian for example, there’s no guarantee my Blistering Skorn/Tempest/Frostburn etc will work on a Swarm if I wait a turn to use it. As a result, removal gets rushed and is often used less efficiently than it otherwise could be. It’s cards like this that force cards like EMP to exist, and if people dislike Vanar, surely people dislike more unconditional removal, especially in extreme forms like that since they dissuade creativity in the game.

[diplodoraptor]

Yeah, illusions being arcanyst does also matter for cheap bond effects. Right now, even with an empty board, arcanyst Vanar can refill its hand and develop a threat for 6 mana (illusion +Trinity Wing) or make a 2/1 and 2 3/3s for 4 mana.

Making them drop manaforger or circulus to activate bond makes things a bit trickier for them because (1) they are less likely to have those cards; (2) they want to play spells on the same turn as circulus and (3) they don’t want to put those 2-drops where you can hit them.

[tsevech]

I think the main issue is more general and actually related to cards of the form “every time something happens, generate some value”. These cards are insanely powerful and prone to abuses, so much more care should be put into their balance. For instance, it does not make sense whatsoever that Arcanysts’ effects trigger upon BBS uses, because that’s insane value most of the times for 1 mana and without spending cards. Owlbeast has also a problem with his health, because most of the times it’s spawned at 6 health, which makes it hard to remove before snowballing. In the end, one is forced to play annoying, uninteractive decks to play around the insane amount of value generated by Arcanysts.

@eurasianjay: you have a point when you mention that Arcanysts are mostly run in Vanar, thus some shift of attention should be given to the faction. But it would be good to hear what do you think the main problems are. To me, Circulus (an Arcanyst) is one of the main offenders, along with the neutral Blue Conjurer, but you seem to suggest the issue is subtler.

[thedandygiraffe]

But arguably it wouldn’t be such a huge problem if they weren’t able to constantly refill their hand. Yet they are. Why? Because Arcanyst, basically (Circulus, Conjurer).

The way I see it, some mechanics in Duelyst are more board-dependent, others tend to ignore the board. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that - as long as there’s some kind of balance, it’s healthy to have a mix of positioning and burst, provokes and rushes, minions and spells. Focusing on your hand instead of the board comes with its own problems - like running out of steam, having a relatively weak late game etc. But the (re)introduction of Arcanysts boosted all of those non-interactive, non-board-dependent, hand-focused playstyles - without any attempt to balance it out on board.

[theodindude]

Well thank you, no offense taken then and yes I did keep it simple oppose to bringing in multiple ideas/suggestions to the table.

I’ll say a few ideas but first I’d like to point out the big reason why I want them to be their own tribe and that’s allowing synergy.

Think about golems, they didn’t have any synergy, at least from what I can remember, till an expansion came out. So changing their tribe to a unique one can simply open possibilities to future ideas.

A few people stated that it would not fix the problem. In my original post, I stated that the 1 drop, 2 atk and 1 hp illuision that is provided from these 2 cards can become way too much of a problem due to THEM being Arcanyst which I’m against.

They have 1 hp, so it allows for many answers and many counters to remove them, while still leaving the original alive, such as tempest or ghost lighting, or even using a neutral such as blistering skorn.

However, in one example, in this case Vanar, she has access to many 0, 1 and 2 cost spells, including her bloodborn, all of which are a spell and in 1 turn will typically use 2, thus increasing the hp pool of illusions to 5, which GREATLY reduces the number of answers or counters ANY FACTION has available to them.

Also, if you bring up ONE specific card, just to answer a problem, such as enfeeble or plasma storm, it’s highly unlikely you’ll be able to have an answer with only 3 cards that can give you a fighting chance oppose to have 9 or 10 that you can use to work around with.
I’m NOT stating there has to ALWAYS be a perfect answer or counter but normally as I play ANY game, I should be able to create a problem that my opponent has to answer or retreat/fall back and give myself time so that I still have a chance to win, you know, strategy.

Let’s not forget that the illusions themselves aren’t from the deck themselves but generated. As a result, if the illusions are wasted, the player doesn’t really have to care much as they can just generate more and/or the game has already ruled in their favor.

THIS is extremely important as, NORMALLY, in a game when you can cause your opponent to use certain cards, it helps you figure out what the have in their hand/deck and possibly how many more of that card they have left over. This allows players to plan accordingly for future turns.

Now, I know this has been discussed before in other posts and there’s many opinions on it but I’d like to try to make additional suggestions on what a illusion tribe should do.

—Future Suggestions—

^^Going off the name “Illusion” maybe some illusion cards can pretend to be your general.^^

-±When doing this they appear as your general to the enemy completely, artifacts, stats, casting a spell etc

-±They don’t actually copy your stats as they have their own
-±When dispelled, hit or killed they are revealed

^^Fake key words^^

-±Some illusions can buff another unit with a keyword but you also get to choose to a keyword to “fake” to the enemy
-±Illusions themselves have the above mentioned ability.
-±Illusions would fake your general having an artifact or keyword.

^^Pretending to be another minion^^

-±Illusions can pretend to be another minion
-±Once dispelled, hit or killed they are revealed

-±Restrictions to this would be
-They can only pretend to be minions of the same cost or
±1 of the illusion’s mana cost or
-the illusion’s mana cost and less than or
-only minions in your hand.

^^Traps and/or unknown spaces^^

-± Illusions would fake where they are and if the enemy tries to place something on that space or move onto that space it prevents it and deals X amount of damage.

^^Not a real body^^

-All illusions don’t trigger the keyword “deathwatch” due to not actually being a physical being but an illusion
-Certain illusions allow you to step on top of them while still blocking your opponent or
-Similar to the trap ability but, the opponent can move onto or pass the space they occupy, dealing X amount of dmg, destroying the illusion but still granted to attack/take action.

I know these aren’t flat out written thoroughly but when I hear or see the word “Illusion” these kinds of ideas are brought to my mind and maybe the game creators can come up with some really great ideas.

Oppose to the current “Illusions” which to me are more like “REFLECTIONS” in my opinion.

[thedandygiraffe]

Sorry, but personally I don’t really like any of those ideas for a new tribe. Too complicated and convoluted for a game which is still (despite the description consistency issue) very mechanically tight and elegant at its core.

I still agree that Illusions should not be Arcanysts tho.

[eurasianjay]

The issue with circulus is it’s draw, not the subtype it spawns. If I come of as pedantic it’s because the proposed changes would do very little to nothing in addressing the flaws with the card. Both circ and conjurer are cards that see play in everything from within their tribe to slotting in in mechs and/or control lists.

So yes, changing the subtype does indeed remove the synergy with owlbeast…which ultimately won’t deter anyone from running either of these cards, even in tandem with each other.

But this is clearly a debate for another thread.

Tldr

OP’s suggested change removes any interaction between circulus and owlbeast sage, which naturally reduces the power level of these cards in their respective archetypes, however it is highly unlikely that such changes would have any long term affects on the faction or the lists they see play in, thus imo making such changes mostly cosmetic and largely redundant.

[thedandygiraffe]

Exactly - this is a debate for another thread. Basically, I agree with you, I, too, think that there are more serious issues to do with Circulus and Van draw etc. But this is a debate about whether Illusions should be Arcanysts or not. You don’t think it’s a priority, you’ve made your point (more than once actually), but suggesting that people end a debate just because there’s another one to be had that you think is more important than this one… comes across as a bit odd?

[owlington]

I do believe that cheap global removal in this game that offers nearly no downsides will always be problematic. But the issue was multiplied when vanar in particular was rewarded with even more tempo removal cards and was being benefited for using these cheap removal cards by in turn growing their own board presence.
I am fairly certain that if Songhai for example was the only Arcanyst faction noone would be this irritated because of the factions lack of tempo removal. So that would mean I could also build a board presence and be able to position myself accordingly to counter their arcanyst. But right now vanar can usually just eliminate your board while building theirs or freeze your units to make the game uninteractive.
I also do believe that changing the tribal of illusions will lower the power level of our current variation of arcanyst vanar however but not by much.

As for suggestions go I think that having an illusion tribe that revolves around secrets/traps and other gimmicks would be interesting and would inspire more thinking in a turn. These would be my submissions.

3 mana
5/2
Dying Wish: Give +2/+2 to all nearby minions

4 mana
4/4
Opening Gambit: Place two corrupted mana tiles.

Corrupted mana tile: Gain +2 mana and deal 3 damage to the unit. (Would appreciate help with wording)

7 mana
5/7
Provoke.
Next turn your opponent’s cards cost health instead of mana.

2 mana
2/2
Corrupt an active mana tile

9 mana spell
Your general gains attack and health equal to the enemy general’s.

5 mana
3/5
Opening gambit: Gain the ability of an enemy minion.

6 mana
2/3
Opening Gambit: All illusions transform into random enemy minions.

This was just me spitballing, would consider all suggestions.