Yeah I suspect it breaks about even because of the particular Artifacts in question. I do appreciate CPG resisting the impulse to RNG this card even though they forgot to actually tell us about it on the card.
Edit: maybe someone could try the Titan out in a Golem deck in place of EMP and report on how it does.
The skywind glaive’s purpose is to bulk up your active minions’s atk, and possibly get enough damage for better trades or simply higher damage to general. I don’t think it’s bad considering your deck is full of minions to benefit to begin with.
I am so glad there was no RNG on Alabaster Titan. Unlike Vetruvian artifacts, which are usually worth around 4 mana and give attack boosts/benifits, Lyonar artifacts are all over the place. Things like Regalia and Dawns Eye are good if your general does a lot of attacking. Halo Bulwark and Skywind Glaives are good when sitting safely in a pool of minions, and Sunstone Bracers and Gold Vitriol are just bad in a minion only deck.
If we see a spell-less deck that can reliably keep a few minions into the 7-8 mana turns I can imagine this causing concedes.
It’s not a Lyonar card but i think Thunderhorn deserves some mention here. Between Magnetize, Holy Immolation and Decimate Lyonar can put this card to very good use. It’s not a new Archetype but I’ve already implemented this into my Healyonar deck and while i haven’t tested it yet, i am pretty sure it’s going to work. Between Decimate, Immo and Thunderhorn the opponent is in a lose-lose situation positioning wise. He plays around one thing and plays right into the others.
Are you running some kind of control variant then? You must be pretty heavy on 4-drops unless you don’t run Oath :p. I do like your triple bind scenario.
I’m kind of sad that Lyonar did not get that many interesting cards this expansion. Sure, the cards they did get were pretty strong, but nothing really stuck out to me as “Wow! What a unique concept! I can’t wait to experiment with this” except maybe Alabaster Titan, which doesn’t seem too competitive.
I don’t know; a few cards like Hallowed Ground generation and Auroara might be strong, but nothing made me feel excited the way cards like Mindcage Oni, Mindlathe, Superior Mirage, Rizen, or Perfect Reflection did.
On the plus side, Zir’an finally got a way to buff her minions out of Plasma storm range.
Sunriser is a beast combined with hallowed ground
Enough for me to say that this epansion got me to give up on playing lyonar deck. I Think right now on the meta lyonnar may be the weakest faction becasuse lack so much other factions have.
Sorry that become huge, but i needed to get of my chest.
Sorry if this sounds pessimistic but the thread was about the status of the faction right now and check out how many s-rank games are been played with Lyonnar decks?
Lyonnar can’t match Magmar on building value, its minions are more expensive for similar power or weaker for the same price.Lyonnar should get in quality (abilities and stuff), but usually do note get enough to beat the stronger magmar. I Could do multi-comparisons on how Lyonnar get the weaker end for some things. Lets stick to the now. The Lyonnar Tiles are really weak. They could heal 2 HP at least to get descent. Its not that 1 heal is not decent, but Exhuming sand gives you a new body for every drop you make. Thats a whole new body 2/2 a lot more value than heal 1. Its worst if compared with Primal Flourish gain +2/2 its waaay batter than heal 1, the condition is the same ( stay atop of the tile), but the value build is much better, better gain attack and 2 resistance than heal 1 if you are injured anymays, and if you stay there you keep healing only if you need while grow is indefinitely, just not fair again in comparison with magmar power to build value and bulk creatures. Even if Lyonnar should not be compared to magmar on what magmar does best, what lyonnar is supposed to do?Heal,?Ok. And does Lyonnar doing this can even in value or tempo with the competition?Whay than can at leats heal better or as well as the other bulk? But whats the advantage of heal 1 if instead you can get +2 resistanc, that comparison woul be disavantageous alone, but lets throw +2 offense to just to be shore. No way.If lyonar could heal 2 in its tile it would not be abusive even considering to heal the general. And considering the best advantage is with multiple instances of it in helayonnar decks, kicking light chaser, sunforge, sunriser and sister sterope twice or tree times avery end of turn can be usefull, but outside that the tile is weak and if could heal two or 3 would not affect the tempo. Even heal tree woul not be to much, after all it would be a big impact on the game heal your general that much that easy, and your creatures would get really hard to knock down, but THAT would impact the game, are all those iron dervishes for free every time you summon a creature not an impact? The kind that you can build a deck around and worth it? Why sugar coat the pill if plyng Lyonnar is simply not giving you this kind of impact for real. What if they could heal not only reatures on the tile but in all nearby spaces? It would still count as only one healing ( like blast and frenzy only count as “deling damage” once). It would be impacting? Yes? It would be unffair? No, not more than making all your creatures grow or gaining 3 or 4 bônus creatures per summon. Not more than making avery tile rise as a 4/4 with your bloodborn spell, not more than “your general cant die” or “resummon all creatures killed by your general under your control”… things that are abusive ( but can be countered) are al over the place, in most factions being played, lyonnar simply have none of those. It must carefully build sinergies (mostly thru healing) , with condtional combos and hope to not get a removal in a turn. If Lyonnar is suppose to be the healers lets at least make it heals in the same rhitym as other factions do theis stuff, not once a turn with a creature if combined with another, but some massive “fully heal all your creatures and give each atack bonus equal to their healths” costinh 8 in a legendary card…they had no shame to give such to abyssia. More than once.
The tile is only usefull as a niche card for sinergy purposes and has another problem, in order the get the tiles you need to use its four making cards and none of then are good.
The cleric is the most viable, the removal is redundant and condtional, so as the buff, and the other costs 7. So the chances of you have lets say tree tiles on midgame are not great and you still need to manage positioning damaged units on top of then to finish the turn so the healyonnar sinergies would kick in. Lets say a Sunriser in position, a sunforge on top of one and Zy’ran on top of another. Thats the best case scenario to gain +3 attack and damage 6 around enemies at end o turn, but how often? You could speculate on more than that but would not that be an already won game?
Again, comparing to magmar, if Lyonnar could create a 2x2 area were all creatures gains +2/+2 it would be a frenzy, a boost to several decks(zoo?), magamar decks may not use it because they already got anough grow, if even this weak tile could be created cheaply in packs of 2x2 it would work helping to control an area, but again, the lyonnar get weaker cards to use a weaker ability and only sinks deeper on meta. Magmar could add +1/+1 or +2 attack, but hey its magmar, whay not making it three?
All cards (except by ouroboro and judicator) that i see that would improve my deck were not lyonar, the vanar ranged with drakes was excelent, what lyonar got? A Zeal ranged or, a conditioned ranged when ranged is suppose to lay on a far corner of the board not beside the general. Really sometimes looks like the card was designed carefully to be just enough condicioned to not work or worth. I Tryed to make a ranged lyonnar and when lyonnar finally gets a ranged unit i freagging hated, i’m supposed to trade arrow whistler of captain hank for this? Even Rogue warden is better, cost one more but the ranged is not condtioned and one is 3/4 and the other 4/3, great improvement -_- . For one less mana Vanar got a sentinel 1/3 that gives you endless 4/4 with flying ( again what kind of comparison is that supposed to be?)
Also love wasteland wraith ( a global selective destruction for 4 mana, only need to last one round and you could put on aegis barrier, too bad is vetruvian), but instead we’ve got aperyons claim, that cost 7, is tied to an area ( big, but not global) and also affects your own minions . How is that for comparison, even if huge cost , limited area and hitting your own creatures was a good deal how do you benefit from 9 tiles? Do we have 9 injured minions to trigger that healing effects? Not mentioning that is seems a lot “win more” any situation were you could destroy that much creatures and still got any heal triggers to activate in orther to take advantage of those tiles.
In general there are several good aditions to other factions and neutral, but Lyonnar didan’t got sentinel but a tile, the weaker tile by far, only usefull in one deck archetype and with worst cards to sink it; It did not got punch, still lacks that “might” card envied by the other factions like Death Knell,Obliterate, enfeeble and others, it always seem to got something a little more conditional or not so impactating. Did anyone considered that maybe Variax was a bit too powerfull? The only card Lyonnar has with such a profile is excelsius, wich is a creature, can be removed, coutered, dispelled (and is also attached to the hellyonar deck), death knell and Variax, grand master embla make their damage by opening gambit, and the damage oulives them, Lavaslasher and Makantor also act imediatly. So even on the category for “over powerfull legendary cards that can win a game instantly” lyonnar meta is weaker.
I think they just dont know what to do with the faction, outside of helyonnar decks they seem not know what to create for the faction as archetypes, so they do things all over the place that most players can’t benefit from. Its pretty clear what magmar or songhai does, so create new cards for it is easy and measure its game impact too. Lyonnar is lacking some motto to its cards that is always usefull (like card buying for magmar or deathwacth for abyssia) outside of healling nothing else adds value with sinergy , its unclear if its creature removal, control thru imunnities and immortality(forcefield, ressurection) or if they would come up with some new option ( like songhai have tree ways, ranged, back steb, spell deck ). If they see zoo lyonar or tempo as archetypes they should know that nothing was given to it. And if the tiles should be the new thing, first, obvioulsy theres no way one expansion will give this tile the uses of shadow creep, but to be a new thing archetype it should do so in some time, and now its not even good, its the worst of all for tiles, most conditional, with worst cards and less options. Maybe with some sinergy to one niche.
I Hope they Hear the complaints and think seriously of strenghten the faction on the next one or two expansions (they really helped vetruvian on this one) because if we dont start talk about it cleary no one will. Lyonnar is being completely smashed on the meta for quite a few time and they need to fix it.
Again sorry for this. Maybe i should create a thread. And sorry for my english
May be true as of recent, idk, but this is funny to me considering Lyonar has been known specifically for having stat-stick minions. Additionally, this skews proper perspective, as Lyonar minion values are better than many other factions’: Vet, Vanar, Songhai.
This seems pretty valid - (and note this comes from a lyonar hater who holds no sympathy for lyonar players). Healing the general for 2 each turn would be abusive. For as much sustain as Lyonar already had, +2 per turn for the general just isn’t necessary. For minions though, yea, I think your point is valid.
Healing beats Aggro, Tempo beats healing, control beats tempo, and aggro beats control. This isn’t solidified in stone, but this should provide a basis for maybe the issue with lyonar’s stance in the meta. (On the flip side, Healyonar is always a potential broken archetype due to the hybrid nature of simultaneous offensive and defensive capabilities.)
False - imagine having a minion that can constantly handle a reoccuring Snow chaser each turn. This costs the opponent 1 mana every turn to play back down and it solidifies that you don’t have to invest extra mana, minion or resources addressing it. Can you visualize how this directly relates with tempo?
As I said, I hold no sympathy for Lyonar players, but I will agree that Lyonar got weak tiles. If you have arguments to the points I made, feel free to respond.
Peacefully,
SeraphicReaper
I’m a veteran in CCC, but new to duelyst so you’re probably right about meta tecnicalities. I understand your points. But i still stick with the meta calling some things abusive for lyonnar a double standart as theres some obviously pretty abusive things going on so you either nerf the abusers of strenghten the weak (what can became such as an army race) . In my opinion there’s really nthing wrong with the lyonnar tile, the magmar and vetruvian tiles are too strong. As a other way to see it, the tiles impaired 4 factons with one that had the tile as a core archetype ( abyssia), and shadow creep and Hollow ground are on the same level, and freajing way beneath primal flourish and exhuming sand.
As i hate the army race and paranoia that comes with it, i would rule the more “down to earth” options as core and nerf the over the top ones. But since the system its not doing that i suggested reforce the weak. Also in popularity terms the army rece is more popular. Nobady likes a nerfed card, even when is still good, but fans of a faction always like when they got something new and strong. But by me the tiles of magmar and vetruvian should be nerfd ( not lyonar and abissia raised), because even with abyssia getting way more options for it, how unffair to give a “bonus” to three other factions that tops a core archetype of another?
The problem is that as it is right now, its unffair to two factions that really could use or depend on those archetypes . So wether they will nerf two or enhance one or two tiles ou compensate with the card options (wich may be unnecessary as abissya has plenty of good things to do with shadow creep, but lyonar no, so it gets the worse of all 4), what they will do them we will see.
As the tempo thing, i was only thinking in terms of healling stances for hellyonnar purposes, your’re right. But don’t you think that by the same logic the exhuming sand is abusive? How many bonus bodys can you get by each lay dowm card, even it take time and investment to build that value it dont get strong by the first?Os the primal flourish you would also not need to invest noyhing and the creature standing there would grow accordinly to eliminate the reentryng threat, and actually surpassing as getting increaslinly stronger. Maybe heal 3 would be too much, but again, some cards like variax and makantos just got me wandering if the designers just don go “well, what the hell” on some cards some times… if thats intentional, so why lyonar lacks those? But again to be honest, that goes against my prefered style. I Would rather not having those “dragon ball over the top cards” at all.
Peacfully idem. Thanks for reading thet big thing and sorry for my english.
EMP is pleased by this card
I generally agree with this, but I’ll tie this in with the following as well.
Yes, I see the similiarity.
Where I think a balance can lie is quality vs. quantity. Creep has been long established and developed into a way of spreading strongly on the board. I am under the impression that Magmar flourish tiles could not compete to how much creep tiles can spread (quantity), but compensate by fewer, stronger tiles (which +1/+1 would already be stronger still - agreeing on your point).
I pose this merely as an additional alternative method toward Lyonar, and all tiles, as a whole; either by being capable of amassing numerous weak tiles (which I would consider should be offensive ones like ping dmg creep), or few strong tiles (which I would consider should be defensive type ones).
I don’t know how this currently resides in Duelyst, but that’s my piece. In terms of complaints with Lyonar as a whole, I think there’s no right to be talking. In terms of specifics like tiles or Alabaster Titan, I can understand.
But I’m bias
Glad to be able to assist you in releasing your frustrations or disappointments - we’ve all been there
It’s certainly true that Lyonar didn’t get a huge load of busted new toys and is generally a little underplayed since the slo nerf kind of killed Tempo Argeon (should be mentioned that even during tempo Argeons prime, it has never been as prevelant as Arcanyst Faie was during her prime). However, from my experience so far, the faction is still really strong.
I’ve been playing the same Bond Argeon deck since Shimzar release and i consider it one of my most solid decks up to this day. If i want to make an easy climb this deck is among the first i consider using for that. In May i climbed to S using Golem Argeon and that deck is also very solid, both decks can easily compete with everything the other factions can throw at them. With Auroara Swarm based decks also got a huge boost and the new tiles help Healyonar.
TL:DR Lyonar might not be popular at the moment, but it’s still strong. Popularity and strength aren’t necessarily the same thing.
I think Lyonar is fine, just those Magmar and Vanar just getting more crazy in this meta. (That 20/20 grow minion just in 3 turn. Fcked up if you not bring dispel).
Idk if i’m lucky, or because i’m still at Silver rank.
But i got high chance winning using my Budget Lyonar + Hallowed tiles with Argeon (under 2000spirits). Sometimes i lose because bad positioning and my provoke minion got dispeled. And Provoke control is the main reason you play Lyonar.
As long as enemy didnt expect my 15atk ironcliff next turn, they r dead. 
What do you mean Lyonar players have no right to complain, is it because Tempo Argeon used to be a thing?
I don’t remember arguing.
¯ \ _ ( ツ ) _ / ¯ okay nm then I guess.
I as a beta veteran of Lyonar faction as well as someone who reached S-rank with Zir’an deck (some time ago) would like to say my word on Lyonar.
I will talk not so much about the powerlevel of Lyonar in the meta but rather about Hallowed Grounds.
These Lyonar tiles are the weakest ones of all. Their in-card cost is equal to the one of Shadow creep, but the effect (restoring 1 health to a damaged minion instead of dealing 1 damage) is much more demanding.
In order to extract more than 1 health you need to keep a damaged minion on the tile without moving it effectivly playing a Sand trap on your minion. Not moving your minions or general is very costly in Duelyst. Cards that limit opponent’s movement are rather pricy.
The positive things in Hallowed grounds are following:
All of the heal-proc cards benefit greatly from instant heal procs (exept Exelsious).
Sunforged lancer looses an ability to grant 1 instant damage.
Sunriser doesnt clear the space for further positioning.
Suns Sister Sterope gives True strike at the end of the turn, possibly burning your draw.
Lightchaser dies to a 2/3.
Gold vitriol has to be followed up by an instant heal, as you have to know where the hit landed.
Overall I realized that Hallowed ground are not meant to support healing decks.
So I’ve thought about the deck it might fit in.
Hold Position Lyonar
A deck that turtles up at a certain position with Provokes and Grounds without any Heal-synergy minions. The deck has to be capable of removing far away threats without moving out and establishing it’s own, basing on spell-removal and clumping up minions, too big for makantor or other clears. The point is to force your opponent to come up to your blocade and heal majority of distant damage with HG.
Also Ive realised that this deck has room for a number of new cards such as Solpiercer, Warjudicator and Halo bulwark.
I havent playtested the deck yet, but I thought that I should toss the concept on our faction’s Round Table anyways as a way to give HG another chance.
