Let's talk about a card that is on the verge of being OP: Ki Beholder


#1

So i spoke my mind about this card in my video (and added some in game footage).

Do you guys think that a 4 mana minion for only 3 mana plus a free sand trap is balanced? tell me how you’d change the ki beholder if you think it is too strong.

(video i mentioned is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t7DvWbON0c)


#2

To be fair, Sand Trap does last forever opposed to Ki Beholder’s single turn lock.

Ki Beholder is a strong card though and Sand Trap is extremely bad. I have always had a dream of using Sand Trap on a Hamon Bladeseeker, but only Kaleos will play that card so it wouldn’t really matter anyway.


#3

Wait what? Card is good, but overpowered as an abstraction is kind of silly. Maybe your post could be about how few good answers there are to early ranged minions? Like how getting smorc’d by Widowmaker just kindof happens.


#4

I think people come to the forums to read (it being a text-based format and all) so your thread will be more successful if you take the time to type out your arguments.

Specifically, how is it a 4 mana minion? How is it a free sand trap when the effect only lasts one turn?

Personally, having used the card at various points in my history of playing duelyst (lmao I’m so new), especially recently, it is not too strong of a card. This complaint is one of those likely assuaged by using the card in question. It delays (nkt even removes!) things but otherwise is just another ranged minion.


#5

But then there’s no reason to put a link to his video :cop:

OT: Is the card strong and probably the best ranged minion out there? Yes. Is it a problematic card in the context of the faction it’s in and the game in general? No. As things stand at this particular moment in time, the card is fine. New expansion is coming and the card might become stronger or weaker, and if it does become too strong it will be dealt with appropriately. Important thing is how it’s not that kind of card that limits game design by existing.

Apparently the thread is about the gauntlet. OH WELL.


#6

To the people commenting in this thread other than the OP, the OP is talking in light of Gauntlet, where ranged minions are crazy strong. This omission makes the explanation clearer, to why they think as they do, and why their experience doesn’t match others’.

Ki Beholder is very strong, but it’s a glass cannon, and in constructed, it’s worth running in spite of how easy it is to remove, but it is that easy to remove.

Also, click-baity thread-title is click-baity, what else is new on the knee-jerky forum? :-/


#7

It surely is a good card, but far from being OP. In general, I believe there are too many complaints about cards lately. A personal advice: I don’t know if you did already, but try using the card on your own and see how opponents deal with it. There are many ways around Ki Beholder


#8

It is definitely OP in Gauntlet and the “Rare” rarity should have never been assigned to it. I’m not sure why Battle Pando is an Epic while the strongest ranged minion in the game has lower rarity. It makes no sense whatsoever when it comes to Gauntlet balancing.


#9

He is comparing it to fire spitter, a neutral ranged minion with the exact same stats as ki beholder, but it costs 4 mana and doesn’t come with the effect


#10

But faction cards are supposed to be better than neutral cards, right? Here, you are comparing a strong faction card with an awful neutral card. However, I’m not a gauntlet player, but I guess it may be much stronger there, due to limited removals.


#11

yes, stronger, but it is not only a little bit stronger, but stronger by a lot.

compare the 3 mana silverguard knight with the primusshieldmaster. it has 1 stat less for mana less, which is strong. but imagine the silverguard knight as a 3 mana 3/6 with an opening gambit: a minion cannot move next turn.


#12

Ki Beholder is absolutely broken in gauntlet, Reva is broken in gauntlet. I am not kidding you that I once met a bronze player who was 11-0 with Reva in gauntlet. Terrible argument I know but I cannot think rationally when I think about gauntlet Reva, I have the most gauntlet wins in the game and I barely play it anymore because fighting against Reva in gauntlet is incredibly unfun and unfuriating. Her BBS in gauntlet basically reads; win the game if not answered or gain +1 card advantage if it is. Vetruvian is straight up unviable in gauntlet because of her. I also feel convinced the devs are not as busy with gauntlet balance; since last patch gauntlet Reva hasn’t even been nerfed, if anything it got helped by cryo nerf. Oh guess what - turn one Ki Beholder can simply not be answered by cryo anymore! I know I am not the only one that feels incredibly outskilled by people playing ranged minions out of range in gauntlet. Most of the gauntlet meta is ‘the first to stick a ranged minion wins’. Not a surprise Faie and Reva are the best gauntlet generals right? I am just getting mad typing this because of how unfun gauntlet has become because of the superficialness of the gauntlet meta, while it used to be my favourite mode. Some shocking examples of cards I have to draft nowadays to not auto-lose to ranged minions, imagine running these cards in constructed:
True Strike, Psychic Conduit (vets only in-faction answer to turn 1 vale hunter that is not an epic/legendary), Inkhorn Gaze, Lava Lance, every Crossbones offered. I feel like Faie and Reva are that good because Faie is the only general that straight up punishes ranged minions (mostly due to hearth-sister) and Reva is the one that is always the one to answer anyway. You know, you can’t even drop a brightmoss at 5 mana against her if you don’t answer her heartseeker. There is no point. It gets deathstrike sealed and you lose the game. Your turn 1 gets Ki Behold’ed? No point in playing your silverguard knight then, it just gets killed by Ki + general or Ki + buff. You have to skip your turn with martyrdom (if you’re lucky enough to have an answer) and give Reva the orb in front of her. Now your 2-drop won’t do much against her Brightmoss. There is almost no risk to playing ranged minions in gauntlet and the reward = win the game. I really hope the next expansion won’t just create more ranged minions and will give a shitload of answers to them, especially to Vet, which used to be fun to play in gauntlet. Oh and a last furious argument: there is literally only 1 card in the game that answers Reva’s heartseeker for the same mana cost that does not give her card advantage. Sphere of Darkness. There is only one answer in the game to her heartseeker that costs less than the heartseeker. Flash Freeze, which gives her card advantage. So even the best answer in the game to her heartseeker, is still just an even trade (1 for 1 mana, no card for no card). There is 0 risk in casting her bloodborn spell. A 0 risk, 1 mana threat.

P.S. It’s funny how in gauntlet big drops also are almost never the cause of winning yourself or losing to. I have noticed I lose a lot more to 2 mana vale hunter than 6 mana Stormmetal Golem. Is that the duelyst world we want to live in, to get beaten up by kids?


#13

^ Well spoken. It’s also worth mentioning that the only general that can easily answer Heartseekers without losing card advantage is Cassyva, which was “obliterated” by CPG when it comes to Gauntlet balancing by giving her only one decent common card that synergizes with BBS - Abyssal Juggernaut, which is not as good as the old Nova. Except that she needs to rely on Lilithe swarm cards (which are much harder to pull off) and neutral minions. That’s not how you should treat (basically ignore) the secondary game mode in your game.


#14

I think Ki Beholder is not broken :slight_smile: It’s just one of the strongest among other rare cards. Let it live through a turn or two then you’re definitely in super hard situation. Just give other factions more answers to cards like these.


#15

Constructed absolutly should be the focus of balance, take Leauge of Legends for example (the most successful game in the world) it puts 90% of its effort into balancing its primary mode, they only recently started doing any balance for seperate modes, and they did it by making completly seperate rules and balancing for the alternate modes.

CG has a lot on their plate, and it is way to hard to balance a vastly different casual game mode at the same time as your compeitive constructed ladder. They would need to devote time to banning/designing seperate custom gauntlet card balancing, and they are already stretched thin on resources and time trying to push out a new expansion, mobile, and balancing constructed.

I do think mobile, and balance of both constructed/gauntlet should take prioity over the new expansion, but they are perfectly in their right to decide where they want to devote their resources.

Yes drafting takes a lot of skill, both knowing how to build a deck on curve, making tough choices, knowing the internal meta, and then working with what you get both in the deck building phase and playing. But ultimately gauntlet by its very nature is an unbalanced RNG fest where luck plays a massive part, and thus it will always be a casual mode. And thus is only worth trying to put effort into balancing if and when Constructed is in great shape, and they have spare time to do so.

Now I do think gauntlet should be free but harder to get rewards out of, it’s very strange charging people to play a casual alternate game mode. Especialy since it’s also an area where newer players can go to sort of have a level playing field Spirit-wise in decks. But it is a buisness model, and just like drafting with cards you are gaurenteed a reward for your investment so I understand why they did it that way.


To address the OP, yep Beholder, Reva, and ranged in general are super op for gauntlet, although you should have made that more clear in the thread to start with. Gauntlet is not, and should not be the reason why a card should get changed. If you want gauntlet balancing, this thread should be about that, and not saying a specific card is op, because in constructed where it matters, it is not.

Now if you really love gauntlet/draft you could try to encourage CG to devote some time to balancing it seperatly and if you are just trying to supply some suggestions, more power to you. But remeber they are a small company with a lot on their plate, so try to be patient and constructive rather then frustrated or demanding.


#16

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