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Let's discuss Thumping Wave

#1

I have seen a lot of negative feedback recently, so I think it would be interesting to open a thread where we discuss the card from a serious perspective. I’ll start with my point of view on the card.

Thumping​ Wave is an excellent card and I run 3 copies of it in all my Magmar decks. The biggest advantage of the card is flexibility: by combining a transformation effect and an attack boost, it can effectively act as both a removal and a face damage tool.

However, I would also to highlight a few issues of the card. Both effects in isolation are sub-par for their mana cost:

  1. The transformation effect costs more than Aspect of the fox and only applies at the end of turn. This can seriously lose games, for instance when applied to Provoke minions which force you to stay stuck anyway.

  2. The attack buff effect is equal to Shadow reflection, but it is not permanent and the transformation effect applies anyway at the end of turn.

All in all, I think that the card is very strong, but not problematic. If you have troubles with Magmar, force their players into using Thumping Wave to remove your threats. They would like to spare their cards for that horrible damage burst, but if you let them do it, it means that likely you gave them too much freedom.

I wait for your comments on the card :slight_smile:

3 Likes
#2

Thumping wave is the most balanced and fair card of the entire card set, no other card can be as close to complete and perfect balance as this beutaful card gem.

8 Likes
#3

Thumping Wave is Magmar crutch. Wouldn’t mind if they knocked the damage down a bit.

1 Like
#4

The problem is rush combined with wave. It gives a lot of face damage, but cards like lavaslasher would be an alternative if lavaslasher wasn’t just plain overpowered anyway.

1 Like
#5

Elucidator + Thumping Wave is a 2-card combo where you pay 7 mana for 10 damage, which is only helpful if used as finisher. Is it that bad? You know that at 7 mana the game starts closing and the effects are powerful…

2 Likes
#6

It says something though that the moment I switch from Sajj to Vaath with thumping that I immediately start winning more lol I’m not mad at thumping wave, I think it’s a great card, but some general deck archetypes are just much weaker then others. Don’t get me wrong, the cards Sajj has are powerful, but artifact synergy just isn’t really a thing yet.

#7

I think TW is a really good finisher but that is all. It shines only when paired with rush minions e.g. Tiger you have 8 face damage for 6 mana which is great.

If you don’t run rush then I find it a bit crappy cause you need a minion alive at the beginning of the turn which you’ll lose for 5 to 11 more face damage (5 from TW + 3x2 from the rabbits).
That is not bad at all but if this minion have a nice effect like rebirth, forcefield (sunsteel is quite common because of the nice combo with flash reincarnation) or even the Taygete effect, you will lose the benefits of this effect.

Concretely, I often saw myself replacing it because I could not use at all or use it optimaly.

On the other hand, you can combo a good positioning of your Taygete with a TW on a enemy minion to have a nice 3 damage AoE and the removal of said minion but, as you said, this will only happen after you finish playing your turn.

Considering all that, I cut it recently from my golem deck and I have to say that I don’t miss it. I’m still running it obviously in my rush/frenzy deck but I’m not considering this one as a staple in all my magmar decks anymore.

1 Like
#8

But the extra cost is in balance with its flexibility. Maybe its just me who can’t think off the top of my head, but there isn’t another card that can act as a significant buff and as a transformation removal spell. The flexibility allows the card to do 2 things in different situations. Plus you can use the battle pet transformation to your advantage with Taygete, acting as a 3 damage AoE if things fall into line. I’ve managed in to do Flash Taygete and Thumping Wave an opponent’s minion to do a 5 damage AoE taking out all his/her minions plus dealing the damage to the general in a game last season. Its not ideal to transform at the end of your turn, but if it was before that point on enemy minions then it would be too good.

If you are using it on your own minions then its usually done as a finisher in combination with a rush minion making the transformation element a non-issue. If you are using it with your own minion to clear a threat then its likely to die anyway, or if it survives it gives the minion at least 3 health which not every general can clear easily by just attacking it with the general. But because its not a permanent buff it means you can’t just throw it on a minion without doing something or being able to get attacks in with the buffed minion over several turns.

1 Like
#9

Yes, but what other 2 card combos do you see that do that much damage out of hand. In a faction that is focused on efficient trading and sustain, it tends to be a much larger problem than usual.

1 Like
#10

Agreed. It’s also such a power combo that it basically has to be run in every Magmar deck. Not running it would just be silly.

#11

To me, the power of this card shows itself not during the game itself, but during the deckbuilding phase.

If you look at this card as removal, it is passable at best. It has some synergy with the likes of Taygete, Vaath, and Juggernaut, but compared to things like Ritual Banishing and OBS, it fall short. As burst damage, this card is also sub-par. You cannot use it on something sticky like Lavaslasher and Sunsteel without it getting turned into some bunnies. Taken separately, these effects provide some flexibility in games and seem generally fair.

However, the real problem that I have with this card is its impact before the game begins. If you run Thumping wave in your deck, you have access to hard removal without having to slow down your deck at all. That is a HUGE upside. Take for example, Songhai. Their Onyx Bear seal is an infinitely better removal spell than Thumping wave, but putting it into a deck weighs the deck down, forcing it to have some bad draws. With Thumping wave, you get access to hard removal, abet, poor quality hard removal, but do not have to pay the price for putting removal in your deck, having nothing to answer.

To me, a card like this is not inherently overpowered, but allowing fast, Facemar decks to have access to hard removal without having to slow down is very dangerous. I would rather the damage part of Thumping wave be nerfed than the bunnies part. Perhaps give +3/+3 instead of +5/+0 so you can keep the bunnies after trading up?

7 Likes
#12

Magmar are not the only faction which does around 10 out of hand dmg with 2 cards in late game.

All faction needs this little-over-the-top cards to define demselves, if magmar are the “stronk” faction then it’s normal to see this kind of cards.

TW flexibility in game can be a problem.
It’s a removal and a buff, but those are 3 card slot anyway, you’ll be forced to put at least other 3 removal to abuse the buffing effect. And even then it’s not difficult to force the opponent to use it as removal.

The cost is actually right,
Expensive in exchange for flexibility.

3 Likes
#13

And like that would be fine if Magmar didn’t also have the best AOE and 2 mana removal next to enfeeble and chrom cold.

This issue is that it shapes deck building in such a profound way. It’s simply more advantageous to put in rush minions and TW then run, say, eggmar. Like eggmar isn’t that bad, but it’s nowhere near as good as rush minions w/ TW

#14

You say around 10 dmg, 2 card combo out of hand, but I cannot think of any other combos that offer this.

I know tiger and wailing overdrive is 8, for 8 mana, but that’s conditional on location and costs more (leaving a bigger body).

I can usually hit about 8 dmg for 2 card late game combos, but not 10. 2 dmg difference is large enough to be the difference between lethal and not, especially with a buffed general who knows their deck and sticks to enemy general.

Can I ask what other 2 card out of hand combos provide 10 general damage for 7 mana? Or as close as you can get.

#15

Decispikes for 7 mana 9 damage, Holy Tiger 7 mana 7 damage, Tiger + overdrive 8 damage 7 mana, Spiral 8 Damage for 8 mana, Meltdown + warbird 9 damage for 8 mana, Tiger + Shadow Reflection 8 damage for 6 mana

Yes, Luci + Twave is the most damage for 7 mana but not by much, and considering you pay 4 life to do that it’s a tad more restricted in usage compared to other combos. So overall, it’s not really exceptional.

4 Likes
#16

Thumping wave is very versatile card. You may say that it’s separate effects are worse than such of other factions but

  1. Vanar is the removal-oriented faction. They have the cheapest and the most efficient removal in the game. And 3/3 for vanar is much harder to deal with and usually requires an additional card. And 3/3 isnt a battle pet. While for vaath it is basicly “take 3 damage, remove a threat”. Unlike martydom, you are the one controling the effect. For example you dont heal opponent 4 attack vaath for 5 health. The outcome is the one you control.

  2. +5 attack in the faction that has that ammount of rush minions and personally makantor (9 damage holy immo and 3/3 battle pet after that) allows for an insane ammount of burst. This card deletes 1/5 of your opponent’s health. 3 of those leave your opponent with 10 health. And keep in mind that vaath damages opponent general himself. And there are makantors. And elucidators. So a general like Sajj, just cant attack, as taking any more damage is suicide.
    Regarding the shadow reflection comparison: if a minion with 5+ attack stick, you win. The same is true if your 3/3 kin damages your opponent’s general twice.

But the main problem of this card is its versatility. There isnt a bad time to play TM. If you replace your last card into TM, you can either finish the game instantly or remove the treat that has more health than your general’s attack. You may say: “Wait, What about at the end of your turn part?What if they have exelsious and i have to stand in place for 1 turn?”. Well, if sometimes to remove your opponent’s 8 drop (or 5 drop) you have to stand at the same tile for a single turn and take 3 damage, i would play it in every faction. And if you die if you stay in the same place for a turn, that doesnt mean that TW is bad. It means that you are already loosing and even thupmping cant get you out of that one.

If you disagree with me, imagine if matyrdom could either kill a minion and restore it’s health to its general or deal 5 damage to your opponent. Or if enfeble could deal 5 damage to your opponent instead. Or any 3 cost spell had an alternative of being a spiral technique.
The reason spiral tech is bad is because you cant afford being stuck with it in your hand. If your opponent has more than 8 health, it is useless. But thumping wave is a card you are never disappointed to see.
You put a removal in your deck that is a spiral tech when you need it.

Or better yet: if a spiral technique had an option of dealing 5 damage to your opponents minions or become an exelsious with spellshield.
Furthermore, removal is balanced because it isnt always usefull: for example when you desperatly need to end the game. And the opposite is true for the direct damage spell.

That ammount of versatility is very threatening in the card game. The core of the game is choosing what to cut or what to add. Do i cut my removals for more aggressive early game? Or should i replace this attack buff with a removal to be better off against big or threatening minions? Well, you dont have to think about it with TW. The balance between removal, damage and minions. All other good cards are just good at what they do. Immolation is good when you have a minion. But you cant use it otherwise. You cant use it to deal 10 damage to a single target. Enfeeble is very good, but you cant finish the game with it.

Finally, i want to talk about the “bait the TW to avoid it.” Well, im not the one, who decides whether it will be used or not. My opponent just moght not use it on my 4 drop. And if i “bait” TW with a 6 drop, well i’ve just lost tempo, and, possibly, the game. It wasnt a bait, but a chance my opponent was happy to take.

2 Likes
#17

Meltdown can hardly be counted, since it’s a random effect.

#18

Its not random on a clear board :wink:

1 Like
#19

If vaath could only thumping wave you on an empty board we wouldn’t have a problem.

#20

This
Thanks @baharoth :slight_smile:

There are still the new vanar 8/9 + reactivate gratis for 8 mana.
Star’s fury + fireblaze for 8 that usually makes around 9 dmg to the enemy general, if not more.
Hexblade + time maelstrom for 10 on 8 (/7? I don’t remember how much hexblade costs) mana.
Obliterate but it requires preparation.
Zendo + killing edge, 8 for 9 dmg (and your general is a battlepet).

You may argue these are weaker,
but remember
1 - they are from faction whose speciality/initial idea/deckbuild is not “go face go face go face”.
(And don’t make you suffer 4 dmg, but we all know that it doesn’t really matter when you just won the game :wink: )
2 - the mighty 3 or more cards combo.
3 - these combo in some cases leaves bodies to remove if they don’t end the game (zendo, the 8/9 and meltdown). While tumpedelucidator sometimes can’t be used if the opponent has litterally 11 healt :joy:

And btw some of them are even 1-card combo.

Pretty sure there are other ways.
But yes, in the end you are right @seraphicreaper, no one does 10 dmg for 7 mana except magmar let’s not oversell.

1 Like