Let's discuss AoE

[tsevech]

Hi, guys! Given the recent discussions about the power level of Arcanyst decks, I’d like to propose a discussion about AoE in the game. Arcanyst decks are excellent at spamming the board thanks to cards like Circulus, Blue Conjurer or Death Knell. If Owlbeast is run on top of these cards, the board presence is even more abusive.

AoE could be an effective strategy against these decks, but I think AoE is overcosted in Duelyst. A few examples:

1. Breath of the unborn: 4 mana to deal 2 damages to all enemies is not exactly great. What about 4 mana for 3 damages to ALL minions?
2. Circle of Dessication: at 8 mana is horribly situational. What about 7 mana?
3. Flaming Stampede: you know already, the card sucks. This likely requires both a rework and a cost reduction

I think we need more AoE in the range from 4 to 7 mana, especially for control factions which may want to play a late game battle against Arcanyst decks. Do you also think so or are Arcanyst decks just too good at flooding the board?

[baharoth]

Except for a few outliers like Circle of Dessication i think AOE is decently priced. Making it cheaper wouldn’t help against Arcanyst swarms because Owlbeast invalidates any form of damage based AOE anyway. It would hurt other Archetypes like Lilith Swarm decks though so it would do more harm than good. You can’t win a lategame battle against infinite Value generation. Even if there were cards like Wrath of God in the game, you would still lose unless you manage to clear all 3 Owls with it. And even then it’s futile against Abyssian Arcanyst decks due to Deathknell.

[edward4244]

I think circle is a bit overpriced.

If i put an owlbeast and then use 2 spells my “worst” minion (likely a 2/1) becomes a 2/5.
Not counting owlbeast himself is a 4/8…
Damage aoe is not the solution.

The only effective way to deal with them is to dispell everything with emp or to constantly have removal for the owlbeast. Either aren’t solid ways to deal with them (since emp doesn’t clear the board and the owlbeast isn’t played in curve) so the real solution is to put pressure and/or close the game before they start pumping themselves.

[tsevech]

It depends, right? In my experience, the single copy of Circle of Dessication run in my Sajj deck saved my life against Arcanysts. However, I don’t want to run more than one copy, because it’s so expensive that it’s a dead card in most matchups. If it costed one less mana, I could probably afford running two copies.

[baharoth]

Circle is overpriced, that’s for sure. 7 or maybe even 6 mana would be more appropriate. On 8 mana you want to play a finisher, not a board reset.

[kirabi]

The control factions do have Aoe in range from 4 to 7. Magmar has Plasma storm(5 mana) and Metamorphosis (6 mana),Vanar has frostburn(5) and enfeeble( 5 mana) and Abyss has graspy of agony (1 mana) and Necrotic sphere (6 mana) .Lyonar is kinda odd man with no clean removal(decimate is it ) but it has sunbloom.

The game imo needs wider array aoe removal cards i would like to see

Tribal Warrior 6 mana minion- If 3 or more minions from the tribe on the board they are all destroyed

Death spores 5 mana spell- give all minions on the board dying wish spores. (Spores when minion dies it does 5 damage minions all tile around it)

Holy Storm 10 mana spell deal 5 damage to everything,every time a heal used this spell cost one less

Lord of the Sands 6 mana- all enemy minions on the board are sand trapped

Death Bahmoth the dragon 9 mana minion- Destroy all minions and Structures

[nwardezir]

The control factions do have Aoe in range from 4 to 7

Don’t forget Songhai’s Ghost Lightning (1 for 1) that can be buffed with 8Gates, Crescent Spear and Storm Sister Alkyone.

My personal record is 5 AoE dmg for 1 mana

[phyvo]

Exactly correct, the problem is not the strength of AoE but the strength of owlbeast, death knell, and blue conjurer. Owlbeast alone invalidates all damage based AoE. Blue conjurer gives mid-game gas so that your hand is always full to play more arcanysts onto the board. And 3x death knell could probably defeat 3x decimate/3x circle even if the abyssian player plays into them every time. If you design AoE to counter that level of absurd value then the game will just break.

When you look outside the arcanyst archetype the balance between AoE and board presence is pretty good. Aside from swarm which is just incredibly swingy, has a neutral nemesis in skorn, and is highly reliant on cards like furiosa and priestess sticking (and the meta being AoE lite in general)

[gsvalhalla]

I don’t think Circle needs changing, the hard part of the card is having your own board built up enough with Obelysks to make sure you have your own board around after the AoE. Which I’ve only seen one opponent successful do. While it can be used as a last throw of the dice to kill everything but you pass your whole turn to do so.

Breath of the unborn is ok as it is. Since it does also heal your own minions as well, allowing you to deal some of the damage needed with minions before using the card to kill things off and healing your minions.

Flaming Stampede, isn’t a good option considering Magmar have Warbeast which is an 4 damage AoE for 6 mana or flash out at 4.

I don’t agree that more AoE is needed to play against Arcanyst decks, but maybe a niche minion to help deal with Arcanyst could be one way to go. Duelyst does a have a way to kill ranged minions with Crossbones, provokes with Hollow Grovekeeper, prevent spell damage with Prophet of the White Palm, stopping rush with Night Watcher as examples. A minion that could stop minions within tribes from taking over, could be one way to go.

[degenerator]

Hmm, I just thought about this: What if echoing shriek is good against Arcanyst Decks? I mean the card is bad in any other situation but it might help getting rid of those annoying tokens. Right? what do you guys think?

[johnbob78]

It does, a few players actually use it as a tech card, for dealing with Arcanysts.

[tsevech]

Definitely interesting, I would love to test the card after hitting Diamond!

[thefirstgokun]

Breath of the Unborn is weak but effective enough as well as flavorful. Circle of Dessication is a pretty crazy hail mary that we really shouldnt bother trying to make viable: either you need it or you don’t, the price is never really the problem.

Flaming Stampede is the only aoe card that I believe should be changed. It’s thoroughly underwhelming, unlike CoD and Breath when they go off, and its too expensive for anyone to ever try to play.

[tsevech]

I run two Flaming Stampede in my Combo Vaath build, but it’s admittedly a bit crazy. It can be useful in the Arcanyst meta and as a finisher when Vaath is out of reach of the enemy general. But it’s a legendary and I don’t think it is supposed to be so situational and memey, I honestly don’t see how it can be made more viable without a rework

[musk1266]

magmar- has plenty of AOE value, plasmastorm is more than sufficient for dealing with swarm, turn 2 makantor is even cheaper if you’re greedy for board control. if you’re opponent is getting away with that many minions above 4 damage then you might be playing your cards wrong, flaming stampede should be left as is since it can be an end game finisher. The problem with flaming stampede is that your general or your enemy general can just hit face with as many minions as possible and then cast flaming stampede on top of that for half or more of the generals original health. if i hit your general with lavaslasher then flaming stampede your down 12 health, if my next turn i hit you with elucidator and thumping wave (9 damage) or (saberspine + greater fortitude) thats pretty much game 98% of the time after you dealt that much insane amount of damage. The other factions need more immediate healing spells otherwise the card can’t be reworked.

Songhai- what a shame to see ghost lightning at 1 mana and deal only 1 damage to all enemy minions, this card really does not get the value it deserves and forces songhai players to opt more for the battle panddo with deathstrike seal combo. Even still that BP + DSS combo can be dispelled making AOE very difficult as of rn for that faction. Pandamonium needs a rework and has a lot of potential to be something more than such a conditional card, it really has little to no value and shouldnt even belong in most players decks since the panddos cant be attacked and your enemy minions respawn with full health at the end of your turn.

Abyssian- breadth of the unborn is a card that isnt exactly the most potent of AOE spells out there but it still packs a punch, if you have a shadow sister or shadow dancer you are getting even more value from every minion that died from the AOE spell itself. Necrotic sphere could be a lower cost spell debatable for 5 mana since abyssian (lilithe) almost always gets their board cleared at 5 mana if shadow dancer is not placed.