Duelyst Forums

Kaleos & Sajj BBS fixes

#1

So, some info to hopefully avoid some controversy (Just in case, I don’t think too many people would be bothered). I want this to be a discussion about what could be changed for kaleos and sajj to make them more viable, since their counterparts are generally considered simply better to play. Though Kaleos and Sajj have some very fun archetypes, even if they aren’t considered viable. I also don’t want this to sound like I believe sajj and kaleos are bad, because with the right pilot and good draw they can beat basically any other deck. The trouble is in a lot of cases it’s simply better to run the other general. This kind of post also probably already exists, in fact I’d bet several do, so if any could be linked that’d be helpful :slight_smile:

Now, onto the actual post (Which could be shorter, sorry about that rant). I can’t think of too many fixes, so any comments will be added to the thread.

One possible fix is to make their BBS cost 0, I know this might seem extreme but it could work. Another fix is to obviously add cards which support their archetypes, and synergise directly with their bbs in a way that makes them powerful yet not as viable on the other general. A potential change for sajj’s bbs is to make it deal double damage to generals, but I know this has been suggested previously and it would be broken. A fix I’ve heard for kaleos’s bbs is to give the minion backstab for the turn, or backstab(1) so the minion will take no damage from a counterattack. This is all I’ve thought of right now, so please leave comments on what could work, I think a lot of the changes I’ve put here probably wouldn’t be very good.

A few people are mentioning changing blink so that it can affect your general, which could be very interesting to see. Here are some of the pros and cons @akurane mentioned

Another suggestion from @akurane

I think the main problem with this is the loss of health, it’s already what makes most sajj games be lost (imo) :confused:

[quote=“eternamemoria, post:57, topic:9244, full:true”]
Duelyst should have a “First Strike” mechanic, in which a.minion or general with First Strike takes no counter attack damage from an enemy they can kill with a single strike. If Sajj’'s BBS gave her First Strike too it would certainly help.

Of course, Falcius would need to be nerfed in turn, and I think CPG is unwilling to add more Keywords to the Core Set.
[/quote] I personally think this is a brilliant idea. This would almost completely negate sajj’s loss of health problem and actually make them (arguably) more survivable than zirix. Obviously seems somewhat overpowered, but faie has circulus so why not give sajj a broken bbs :stuck_out_tongue:

Also some talk about zir’ans BBS between @raviel1234 and @sandclock, but it’s seperated between several posts and quite long, so go down to the 30th-40th section of comments to have a look at that.

#2

To be fair, I can’t say I’d have a legitimate opinion on the balance as a whole, but without legendary support making decks for Sajj is a bit daunting.

I’ve found myself thinking to myself: “Oh, Sajj would be fun with these budget shenanigans if her bbs would just be 0 cost…”

So, yeah. :slight_smile: I’d love it to be free to play, or be available every turn. But then again that messes up the bbs dynamic as a whole and I wouldn’t want to differentiate her so much from basic mechanics.

#3

BBS are made to be as clean and simple as possible. Your suggestion of Kaleos’ BBS change would perhaps overcomplicate it.

True that Kaleos’ BBS is the least popular amongst all BBS, but some people have been trying their hands with Onyx Jaguar Kaleos deck, and they’re having moderate success. Maybe more support will be added to Kaleos’ BBS in the future.

Sajj’s BBS definitely need no more tweaks. She has received enough support cards, like Ankh, Falcius and Zephyr, and synergy cards like various artifacts. Some people often opt for sajj instead of Zirix in non-obelisk decks because of that.

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#4

In gauntlet Saji seems fine to me, I pick her more often than Zirix.

But making her BBS cost zero would not change that much, other factions are better anyway.

I never pick Kaleos, he could really use a buff.

#5

Personally I would have liked to see an arcanyst with backstab for kaleos. It would have let him play an arcanyst deck that actually put sparrowhawk to use.

#6

personally i think they could be ok with some more support.
i am trying some fun kaleos deck now, where kaleos is actually better than reva and it works surprisingly well, sure it has no chance against vanar, but not like there are many decks which can beat vanar anyway.

if you have to change their bbs i would probably go for something like that:
sajj - when bbs is played all artefacts cost 1 less this turn only.
it might require nerfs to time maelstrom and/or auroras tears to not make OTK sajj too strong, the bbs however does not add any value when hitting a general so it could be ok, sajj would need to play 2+ artefacts that turn to get advantage of bbs, those already cost decent amounts of mana so it could balance itself out. tears probably should be nerfed regardless.

kaleos - add a second effect: can be cast on general. if cast on general costs 3 mana instead. that might even be too strong, maybe 4 mana to teleport general. not sure with the new celerity artefact songhai got, it could be a mess. might be totally broken in most matchups.

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#7

Sajj’s BBS is probably fine, some people run it over Zirix in non-dervish decks, just like @bublublub said. If we continue to get artifact support and cards like Falcius and Zephyr, it definitely need no buff.

Kaleos’s is a different story though. Reva’s BBS is so strong that I dont think more cards that support Kaleos (backstab/move shenanigans) will be enough - although it definitely helps. I’m not really sure on a good buff, but raising the amount of spaces the minion can move from 2 to 3 seems like a good start (but probably not enough). 2 spaces just doesn’t cut it a lot of times.

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#8

TBH I think that both of their BBSes are fine as they are. As already mentioned Sajj is in an OK position for now, not top tier but definitely ok. Kaleos is rarely used because Songhai like playing aggro and his bloodborn is better used to move big minions close (I know it was originally meant to make it easier to use backstab, but I find warping Hamons and super buffed arcanysts more useful).

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#9

Sajj’s bbs looks fine as is.

Kaleos bbs could use some love, maybe let him target himself.

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#10

I think both BBS are fine, they just need even a single card to take advantage of them. Their main issue being that they doesn’t play naturally with many common cards types.

Blink is quite strong, letting you place things out of enemy range but still threatening them. The heartseeker is quite easy to handle now and things like bbs + if + ke a mana more expensive and the 1/1 a potential liability against deathgrip. Kaleos is all about tempo and making it ‘impossible’ to block his threats with the board is a very useful ability to have.

Psionic strike is ‘free’ removal with its largest shortcoming being that its not spammable in the late game forcing you to be proactive against something like warbird. In shorter games where certain decks cant make use of a random 2/2 sajj has quite an advantage over zirix where killing or threatening to kill a fat minion can give you a lot of options and tempo swings.

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#11

I agree. I mean it says something that the two worst decks are run by both Sajj and Kaleos. Not sure how to fix it though. Sajj’s BBS might be better as just "add +2 attack for this turn"
Or something. As it stands her BBS can be used to proc thunderclap better then Zirix but that’s about it.

#12

With Sajj the problem is kinda boiled down to “why would I bother with single target removal, if it costs me my own health in the process” like yes zephyr and Falcius help and thunderclap gives a reason to do that kind of minion clear, but nearly everything Sajj can do other generals can do for less cards, less mana, and not at the expense of their own health.
As for Kaleos, I think adding a “minion gets back stab (1)” for the turn might be okay, but frankly Kaleos just needs a bit more support.
Unfortunately Sajj has been giving a lot of support, and her main deck archetype is still at the bottom of the tier list. That’s not a problem with people playing her, that’s a fundamental problem with the generals Design.

#13

Um, +2 attack would be worse. She’s guaranteed that much by using her current bbs.

#14

Not exclusively for just minions though.

#15

I feel like that would clash too much with spinecleaver and thunderclap. Maybe even hexblade to an extent. I feel like the board manipulation is pretty important, and vaath is more along the lines of smacking face.

#16

it wouldn’t be good.
OTK sajj exists and it’s already quite easy to get lethal with it.
if you have a surviving artefact, like wildfire ankh. you play:
staff of ykir + 2 * aurora tear + time maelstrom = 7 mana
((2 + 2) + (1 + 1) * 2) * 2 = 16 damage

if bbs was +2 damage it would have been 20 damage for 8 mana, or 16 damage out of hand for 7 mana. and there are plenty of such combos.
that’s why its not a good thing to give such buffs to sajj unless aurora tear or time maelstrom get nerfed.

control sajj needs a buff, not OTK one.
having the bbs only buff damage against minions is better for that. maybe they just need to make spinecleaver cheaper or something to allow some control options, currently artefacts with effects are too easy to break and cost too much to be worth with only single guaranteed use. not counting the staff of ykir ofcourse, which is mainly good for OTK anyway…

#17

But OTK Sajj is remarkably inconsistent, same with control. For OTK I might as well just go Vaath? Like he does everything OTK Sajj can do but better. And as for control Sajj I could literally just play Faie or Zirix instead.

List me one advantage to playing Sajj over Zirix other than procing thunderclap better.

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#18

Literally anything to do with artifacts. That’s her thing.

#19

Okay, but how does Sajj use them better? Because your more inclined to hit a big target with her BBS? Will the Zirix I can just ram a minion into the enemy first?

Just because she can double damage to minions with her artifacts doesn’t make her inherently useful or better than Zirix. A body will almost always be better than Sajj’s ability.

So long as Sajj has to trade damage for removal I don’t think she’s at all worth playing.

#20

I’m not saying she’s better. I’m saying there are items which are better on her than zirix. Zirix just doesn’t run artifacts, because they’re not as good on him.