Duelyst Forums

It's time for *drums* nerfing vanar more!

#29

You think that’s a problem?

the control almost always win.

@Whyb0t: Not long ago I talked in a PS! chatroom and I said that HO is the hardest playstyle and that stall is the easiest. This turned into a flamewar, people think that aggressive styles are all about going face but they aren’t that, in this case HO requires more prediction than any other team, it also requires you to remember hundreds of damaging calculation and have an expensavie knowledge on how tempo works in this game. Stall requires none of that, it just requires you to play safe, to know what walls beat what and to how to not lose to certain offensive cores, overall stall is a lot less skill intensive, just more patience testing.

While this is hard to translate to card games at its base it’s easy, Aggro requires you to pay lots of attention to your mana, have tons of match-up knowledge (if you want to take it to high levels) and be very good at ordering. While control requires you to know how to slow the game down till the point where your engine starts picking up steam.

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#30

I think there are a few kinds of control you speqk about one of them, the stall game - heavy control, lots of removal, big tempo minions, we’ll call it slow control - like magmar’s vaath or classic ziran.

The other types are - quick control, which include ramp - ramp doesn’t care about your board, it does however gets to the finishing line before your heavy removal kicks in threats included, usually removal will be pact for certain matchups where you don’t draw enough ramp options, you ramp too fast or your enemy survived your wincon/ dispelled it.

and the last type - which is my favorite and most complex, we’ll call it board manipulation control. the condition is - have a board, utilize it (reflection, vespyr, and sotw) ramp doesn’t help as well as stalling because your productivity indicates pace.
stall will be included for i reason - keep your enemy at the same condition which allows your wincon to take place, for ex. - stow is not relevant if your opponent ruched to your side of the board, so packing avalanche will get him back, heartsister + wailing overdrive is an option too but these options cost deck space.

good aggro decks skip over it, most of them are cheap and are enough to burn you down if requirements didn’t met (especially if you play vanar and has no build in healing to answer it), plus deck space is used as narrow as dmg enabler, dmg reduction, and mobility from time to time, this is enough deck space to cover most of the ground needed.
control will take tempo decks everyday (the reason wanderer basically lose to a control matchup very often), but if the deck does not rely on stalling or any other condition, burn has a really good chance of winning - the match goes into "see if you can otk or wincon before the timer’s up.
usually i don’t have a problem with it, control decks have certain flexibility and can be piloted to run as semi aggro decks thus finishing the game at 7 mana (see screenshot).
i can agree that calc. of dmg output and match ups is maybe difficult at times but piloting a deck that rely on position to pull out max dmg, need to cover a lot of ground with a fixed deck is harder - this is basically the reason control vanar is SO hard to pilot while aggro is easier and more appealing to newer players.

i do however feel and felt when i started that the board gives a whole lot of depth to the game, which aggro usually blur if not forced to it by certain decks (like ziran or vaath that slow everything down)

#31

That’s not control my friend that’s midrange or tempo. Control decks always play counters and always prefer a longer match. Not so with some of the decks you’re describing. Not every deck is either aggro or control…

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#32

I just can’t fit tempo and midrange into these types mainly becuase they don’t rely on minions or tempo.

#33

If your “control” decks havd an earlygame, it’s not control.

As a long time hard Vanar Ramp player, that deck is bassically a weird ass tempo deck, your early game is shit but because you have ramp you kinda just skip to the late game where you pile on pressure.

At it’s base all control decks are the same, no matter the variant they have the same basic gameplan: Survive till the lategame and start applying pressure. Decks go about it differently but they all have the same basic gameplan.

Wait what!? Midrange and Tempo are all about minions and Tempo.

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#34

I meant that i can’t fit qhat i describe into tempo and midrange.
Becuase they don’t rely directly in minions or tempo.

#35

People need to seriously stop throwing the word tempo around because I’m pretty sure at this point almost no one here has any idea what the word means.

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#36

that is just actively untrue, most control decks run 2 drops (either healing or removal based ones), those that skip their t1 run a good number of t2 plays as skipping 2 turns in a row is a loss.

#37

By have I’m a bitof embelshment but it’s bassically that control decks tend to have a below par early game.

#38

Every deck ‘has’ an early game. @epicflygon means if it focuses on early game more than late game, it isn’t control.

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#39

Duelyst doesn,t have true control…for that it is simply too fast

#40

Duelyst has true contril, control has a very basic gameplan and that is easy to replicate.

#41

In my opinion control aims to stop your opponent from doing anything to eventually starve him out of recources
How is that supposed to work in a game that ends in 7-8 turns on average and has infinite valuegenerators that need no setup and are hard to answer?(fault,wanderer)
Stalling until you can play your nosetupwincon is not control in my opinion

#42

That’s stun, not control 2 VERY different styles.

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#43

Whenever I think about tempo, I always think lavaslasher.

#44

When I see threads like this, it makes me wonder how this community would react to M:TG style control decks that empty your mana pool for multiple turns, destroy your hand, your deck, your car, your marriage… and your kid’s future with 5 mana.

I’m hoping we get MORE of that kind of play. The aggro decks are out of control and trials could definitely stand the counterplay. I would love to see a spell that returns all creatures to their owner’s hands, or reset both players lives, decks, and hands. A spell like Silence that prevents casting spells for a turn or a soul lock of some sort that swallows the next creature cast from an action bar. People here are scared of real legitimate, full on control decks but for some reason 8 gates (burn your face off in one turn) or aggro, or milling, are all considered acceptable. I don’t get it… I say let’s go all the way!

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#45

But than the games would be too long for you :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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#46

I feel like that’s a pretty subjective thing. Control metas (I know you are talking about card games, but I feel “meta” is a more compact term to refer to) are not objectively better than aggro or quick paced metas, on a spectrum between infinity (there is really no opposite to perfection) to absolute perfection control is not objectively closer to the right than aggro.

This is why there is such variety in the CCG genre because everyone has different tastes and so many card games are allowed to prevail instead of a select few because there are so many tastes to appeal to. In the case of Duelyst, the preferred, although not always present, meta is games that end by 7-8 mana which is even endorsed on the game’s website as “lightning fast 15 minute games”.

Duelyst could certainly switch to a motto preferring 30-45 minute games, but as a result it will lose the audience and core base to which it initially appealed to with the previous slogan. We have already seen this happen during the chaotic era when Duelyst switched from 2 to 1 draw and as result lost so much of its previous community.

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#47

Stax is the name for the archetype. Unless you mean duelyst decks.

#48

This. Rework wisp, and possibly basilisk and shroud. Give vanar good minions with nontoxic mechanics.

examples:
protosensor > 2/3
borean bear >1/4
malicious wisp > 3/5 DW: gain a mana crystal
sleet dasher > 4/6
dryad > 3/4
corona > able to target face

You get the idea

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