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It Tickles When I Creep

tl;dr Creep is better than it was but lacks the positional gameplay and still hinges on nuking the opponent out of nowhere after drawing the right card. Skip to end for groovy tweaks that could make it more fun for everyone.

Up front, I want to say that I played back at release and quit around the time that the official forums were taken down…or scheduled to be taken down, because they’re still here? Who knows. Anyway, I played mostly a Creep Abyssian deck (~350wins). I just came back a few days ago and things are…different. Whatever happened in between then and now I have no knowledge of.

I’m not asking for a revert to the old Creep, btw. I understood that it was a flawed mechanic and suggested several nerfs of a different nature myself. I also understand that changing Creep too much would require reworking many of the new cards that interact with it. Rather, I’m expressing concerns about the direction the change took. Hear me out, if you will, and I look forward to your thoughts.

Previously, Creep was the most board intensive way to play the game. You had very limited generation mechanics and very little boxing power. To win, you had to dance around what little Creep you had while avoiding threats and frantically boosting your card draw. The biggest problem was that it wasn’t very fun for your opponent when it worked–they might have to endure several turns of being unable to reach you while you fished for something to finish them off. On the other hand, it was not fast enough to stand a chance against more aggro decks. When I left, every viable competitive deck was aggro.

After the changes, Creep no longer poses a threat on the board. It’s faster, now, but still slower than average. An aggro deck can just ignore the Creep entirely and beat you down. The 1 damage ping isn’t useless, but doesn’t have much influence against anything other than swarm Abyssian. On top of this, the threat was shifted into 2 new legendary cards (which are locked behind an expansion, I might add), and it is nearly impossible to win with a Creep deck unless you play them. This means that, like before, there’s no winning before your 8-mana turn unless your opponent somehow can’t deal with your creep generation minions. Basically, Creep functions as a game clock–you and your opponent both ignore it until it blows up in one of your faces.

Allow me to break that down a bit~

-Creep used to rely heavily on positioning with the mechanic serving as removal, funneling and damage. Choosing where to place it had a huge effect on the game. Now, it doesn’t really matter too much.

-With the huge damage loss, it is necessary to include more hard removal. Before, you could choose between damaging a general and removing a threat–now, you just play whatever removal spell/minion is meta. This shifted the deck much closer to uniformity.

-Creep decks used to consist only of basic and non-legendary cards (at their core). Now, the cards necessary to make Creep work are all difficult to get legendaries. Sister Kelaino requires having all of the base set legendaries unlocked…which is literally over 9,000 spirit away for me. Variax can’t be crafted and is tough to fish out of the expansion. Obliterate can be crafted, but can only be used once and has to be a lethal or you basically lose the game. On top of that, non-legendary Punish is key for removal that won’t clog up your already slow deck and is also locked behind an expansion. That role used to be filled by displacement spells + damaging Creep.

-Creep used to be an involved and challenging mechanic to use. Getting your generation done while also fighting off enemy minions was difficult as none of the Creep generating cards could hold their own. You also had no way to force anyone to stand on Creep until your 7-mana turn and then had to save a Shadow Nova to finish the enemy in many cases. There was RNG in the draw, yes, but victory was determined by the application. In the new system, your minions are a little more threatening, but victory is determined by how fast you draw your legendary, 8-mana finisher.

Given the choice between the two, I think the new system is healthier for gameplay. However, it follows the disturbing trend of downplaying the importance of the board in favor of hinging game outcomes on RNG. I want to ask about a suggestion for maintaining some of the old flavor without radically redesigning the game.

Previously, while the old system was in place, I suggested only using Creep that was connected to determine damage. That would have allowed for some positioning help while also rewarding opponents for well-placed removal and giving them relief from unseen nukes. My hope was that the change would allow for more Creep generation and stronger minions. It seems that the new system hoped to accomplish similar objectives but drained all of the threat out of the creep and gave most of it to late-game finishers rather than the minions. My goal now is to think about ways to even that threat out a bit.

The following ideas are not meant to all happen together. They’re also not my Magnum Opus. I’m about 100w into this new system and am still trying to feel it out.

Main Goal: Make Creep positioning more important without making it overbearing. Also, even out threat among Creep/minions/finishers a bit.

Improve Creep damage to 2
This would make ignoring the Creep a more impactful choice and raise the importance of placement. It would require changing Darkspine Elemental from double damage to, maybe, +2 damage. More threat in the Creep but less overall damage potential.

Creep based draw
I’m thinking a spell that draws a number of cards equal to the amount of Creep connected to or on the square you choose. Again, it improves the importance of placement. Drawing too few or too many cards could be an issue.

Neutered Obliterate
This card seems like an echo of all the worst things about Creep. You see it coming but can’t do much to stop it…then it just ends the game out of no where. What about changing it to only blow up the Creep connected to or on the square you choose, dealing damage to enemies nearby any of the squares equal to twice the exploded Creep. The cost would have to come down, but this way placement is important and opponents can manage their risk. Also, the card would have more use cases since it wouldn’t remove ALL of the Creep…unless you wanted it to and worked for that.

Opening Gambits or Spells that change Creep
Something like changing Creep to deal more damage but disappear when stepped on by an enemy. This could be boardwide or just for connected Creep. Something else might stop Creep from damaging enemies but cause it to heal allies instead–it would also disappear if stepped on by an enemy.

Minions with Creep proximity bonuses
To improve on the idea of slowly taking over the board, a mechanic (artifact, single-minion ability, spell) could give a minion bonus stats based on how much Creep is nearby. It would be similar to the current Juggernaut, but opponents could avoid it by stepping out of range. Positioning is key to making this useful.

Perpetual Creep generation
This sort of exists already for Cass, but could be expanded if giving enemies more ways to interact with Creep like the aforementioned disappearing once stepped on. The idea is to have an option to finish the game gradually by increasing your threat radius rather than in a single burst or by summoning truly silly amounts of fiends. I think a 2-3 mana spell that generated 1 square of Creep then shuffled itself into your deck would do the trick.

Creep to minion mechanics
I don’t mean Variax–he seems ok (maybe gaudy), but I’m thinking a spell that transforms a square of Creep into a minion. Perhaps stronger spells could transform all connected Creep into a minion with stats based on the amount of Creep consumed. There could even be a minion that consumes all of the Creep it walks over and grows more powerful or causes the Creep to explode. The idea is that Creep becomes less static–you’re constantly generating and consuming Creep and are more powerful when you can lay down roots for a while.

Creep Escapes
A 4-5 cost spell that transfers your general from one Creep square to another anywhere on the map and consumes both.

Altar of Creep
A structure card that generates 2 squares of Creep per turn nearby. If no non-Creep squares are nearby, it starts converting squares that are connected to the Creep around it. It should only be usable on squares that already contain Creep and should be relatively cheap with ~4 health.

Non-finisher Legendaries
Part of the game is having cards that end matches, though it’s generally more interesting if those cards give the opponent a small window to react. Obliterate is an exception but is very destructive, so gets away with it. Variax doesn’t do anything when he’s played and the summoned minions don’t do much on the next turn either. I want to try for a legendary that increases the threat of Creep by improving the threat of minions/spells that depend on it.

-An 8-mana spell (Fetid Bloom?) that causes each square of Creep to generate an additional square of Creep in every nearby square, but maybe cause it to disappear when stepped on. This would hype up the creep-dependent nature of my other suggestions and allow the neutered Obliterate to function similar to the current one but with more dependence on positioning and a 1 turn offset where the opponent could try to stomp some of the creep out.

-An 8 mana structure (Totem of Decay?) with Provoke that pulls all of the Creep all over the board and rearranges it in a spiral around itself. The more Creep, the larger the spiral gets. It’s too expensive to play with other cards, but could effectively be a 1-turn offset finisher if you’ve maintained enough Creep.

3 Likes

Are you sure about that?

Are you sure about that 2? (The sequel)

Are you really sure about that? (Doubt strikes back)

I mean honestly your suggestions are interesting but your complaints regarding current creep decks do not suggest an issue to the majority of the current community.

I can’t really respond to your thoughts if you don’t state them.

When I previously played, Creep generation was limited to Abyssal Juggernaut (killed enemies generated 1 Creep, body was 3/6 I think), Abyssal Crawler (generated 1 Creep as Dying Wish) and Shadow Nova (same as now but with 7 cost). The only way to get more creep was to yank Shadow Novas back if your opponent didn’t cast any spells on their turn. So, yes, far more limited than what exists now.

A 1 damage ping is very easy to trade with. The right decision, if you can’t step on clean squares, is almost always to charge into the Creep and come out way ahead on damage. Compare to the previous iteration where it was a real decision to step into the funk.

The last bit is an opinion on my part, but I believe I supported it throughout my post.

Old creep didn’t rely on positioning. It was basically create as much a possible (although harder to do back then) and then blow your opponent away with the old shadow nova. It served as create 4 creep spaces and do 4 damage to anything on them, if you had no creep beforehand. Positioning had almost nothing to do with it for the Abyssian player, all they had to do was survive to turn 7. Old creep was too good back then and now it doesn’t overwhelm the opponent via creep damage but acts as like a clock depending which card you use to finish the opponent.

Not true, you need to have 3 copies of all the 6 rare cards from the faction’s core set. So at worst, you need 1,800 spirit.

I disagree on this, it was too easy back then just because of how the damage stacked up on the creep.

Or your 4 mana finisher if you use Ghost Azalea but I understand the point being made.

I don’t think its a good idea. Changing up the damage considering its easier to place creep nowadays and the fact you can use it as a finisher with Obliterate would limit what other factions could play as well as making it too easy to push damage through.

Interesting idea, but would it overshadow existing card draw?

So did the old Shadow nova. But at least with Obliterate you can count the damage beforehand and a have a better chance to react before it being used, like dispelling creep to reduce the damage or healing yourself to keep your health above the number of creep tiles since Obliterate normally takes up all of your opponents mana so they can’t always add to it on the same turn that Obliterate is played.

Another interesting idea, but maybe it would make creep too hard to stick on the board as well as making some cards such as Obliterate really bad because you can’t rely on creep staying around. It can dispelled at the moment but its not as big of a problem as your change could be.

Abyssian does rely on a hell of a lot of legendaries to be finishers. But I suppose the budget version would be Abyssal Juggernaut for creep Abyssian.

I liked being able to use creep defensively. I liked being able to turtle my General away behind creep, and know that the enemy couldn’t stand minions next to me or they’d just die to creep damage.

But I’m pretty sure that new-creep makes for a better game than old creep. Cards like Ooz and Sphere of Darkness couldn’t be allowed to exist with high damage old-creep.

How about: make Darkspine Elemental an opening gambit effect: every time you play one it permanently adds +1 creep damage?

How about: a big spell to summon an abyssal crawler on each creep square?

In order to survive to turn 7 (where you could actually use Nova) and beyond required making use of the threat from Creep squares. Or maybe I should say that it could be done with Creep–if you played more of a burn/heal deck, you could nigh-mindlessly facetank your opponent and then get some sweet nukes at the end. I definitely don’t want to bring that back.

I’m working from memory, though. I may have made a deck to maximize positional challenge as opposed to most effective nuking. After trying both, I know the latter was more fun.

3x6x900 = 16,200, no? WAIT, rare =/= legendary…damn…

Okay, that’s much more reasonable.

Having expansive Creep on the board should impact what your opponent plays–or at least where they play it. The threat should be high enough that it actually impacts the board instead of waiting for a finisher to convert it into value.

In terms of Abyssian cards, it’s only competing with Rite. It would overshadow it in most cases but would require substantial Creep on the board and decently placed. A dispel in the middle of a chain could ruin the card’s effect. Thus, it’s more volatile than Rite, but also more nimble.

The previous threat level from creep was definitely too high. I agree it’s more fun/interesting to have more access to the mechanic even if each instance is less powerful.

I like the Darkspine change for sure–the current iteration is no good unless you drop all of them at once while enemies are already standing on Creep. It’s just not worth 3 cards of deck space.

I like your spell in a thematic sense, but I think a big spell would need more impact. At that stage of the game, you need to be converting your Creep into value moreso than setting up more generation.

I’m quite into the idea of working with the connectedness of creep.

Imagine: A spell that says “Each creep tile creep instantly does 1 damage to the unit on it for each connected creep”. So two isolated tiles do 1 each, two adjacent tiles do 2 each. 4 tiles in a row or a group would do 4 each… then, working out how you can join tiles together becomes part of the game, and a “safe” isolated creep tile might become dangerous if it can be connected to the main body of creep. Strategic dispelling can also then break up the creep into isolated clumps. Positioning units so that the creep spawned under them by Ooz and Abyssal Scar is not connected then also becomes a thing.

BTW: my suggestion RE “Summon an Abyssal Crawler on each creep tile” is functionally equivalent to your “Fetid Bloom”, save that it gives minions too.

I think Creep is fine, balanced/interactive enough as it is, but there is defnitely room for some new mechanics. Some of your suggestions are super cool and would make creep much more interesting. I am personally a huge fan of the creep proximity minions.

It was definitely necessary to change the Shadow Creep mechanic. Before the rework, all Creep decks worked as follows:

  1. Stall until you can play Shadow Nova
  2. Win with Shadow Nova

Old Shadow Nova was way too strong. Sure, the way Creep works now requires you to build up for a powerful Obliterate, but that’s more fair since you have to work for it all game, and it’s not always so easy against aggro decks, but it does have a great payoff.
As Creep decks are now, you get one chance to finish your opponent off through Obliterate. Back before the redesign, you basically got 3 Obliterates, each one stronger than the last. Old Shadow Nova forced awkward positioning, and you could hide behind Shadow Tiles too easily until you could find a Spectral Revenant or another Shadow Nova to end the game.

I like the way Creep decks work as of now,

I agree with you. I think that now you dont play the creep for the sake of the creep, but rather for obliterate and abyssal juggernauts. 1 damage they provide is nice but the creep decks win with their minions, not with the creep. The creep cards are string, not the creep itself. Dark sphere is just a self-cycling true strike, Juggernaut is a 4 mana exelsious and Ooz is a 4/3 for 2 mana. I would be very glad to see the cahnges that amphesyse on the creep itself, not on just straight up good minions that have a creep tag on them.

As for the post, i think that your ideas are cool, but in order for them to exist, you need to redesign some other creep cards. Dark sphere is just too flat and boring and makes all that positioning of the creep quite easy and as a result, doesnt punish a player for making the wrong choice of the creep spot.

An existing card that currently isn’t played which would have the desired effect is Night Fiend. I used it for a while, but it didn’t do quite enough damage for a spot in my deck.

What if it was “Deal 1 damage to each enemy for each friendly Shadow Creep near it”.

A minion standing on or beside a lone creep tile would take 1 damage. A minion standing in the center of a square of 9 creep tiles would take 9 damage. Shadow Nova + Night Fiend would be a playable 9 mana combo that dealt 4 damage to the occupants of 4 squares, splashing 2 damage for 8 squares and 1 damage for 4 squares nearby.

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Damage has to stay at 1…any increase would multiply the power considerably and would have to be nerfed in other ways, like generation. But then we’re back to old creep status and that’s bad.

New creep is fine and it’s viable, it has a lot of support and a lot of potential for future interactions.

I’m not suggesting that we go back to high damage Creep, nor am I saying that it isn’t viable now. I just think the mechanic isn’t delivering on its potential. All of the power is now in the finishers and it would be more interesting to see some shifted elsewhere.

It’s certainly not awful in its current state, but it lost many of the things that made it cool while doubling down on some of the things that made it not cool. I don’t want to shift it balancewise, overall.

Precisely~

Since there’s no point to fear the actual Creep, there’s no gameplay around positioning it or avoiding it or dispelling choice portions of it. Instead, you just have Creep based minions/spells that deliver similar power to other factions but make it much more of a hassle to access.

I haven’t tested that one yet, but it sounds like it really doesn’t do damage per square. I’m with you in that it isn’t worth playing a card with such a puny body…why bend over backwards for so little reward when you can just wait for Obliterate?

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I think there is potential for the mechanic to be better. But I was addressing your comment on increasing the damage, which I disagree with.

I think further support is all that it needs as a mechanic. Obliterate is strong but it’s not any worse than spiral technique or thumpidator. The mechanic itself can have more interaction, like Nocturne, without really changing too much of what is already there.

Fair enough. My goal is to increase the threat of Creep but that doesn’t have to be done by increasing the base damage.

Nocturne is the new Arcanyst coming out? The wraithling/Creep combo thing? I’m not sure it’s going to be any good for Creep decks since both Creep and Wraithlings are tools to be converted into value by other things. Including the catalysts for converting both of them into value in your deck is not really feasible either. The best use would be a Sister Kelaino deck for maximum healing…but then there are too many moving parts and it doesn’t really change anything about how the decks play.

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