Is Vetruvian Dead?


#1

Simple question.

Is Vetruvian a competitively dead faction?

If you wish to answer my question; I ask you to provide proof of a climb from Bronze/Silver/Gold to S-Rank while ONLY using Vetruvian(post Siphon nerf).

Secondary questions:
Do the majority of players acknowledge Vetruvian is in an abysmal place?
Do the developers acknowledge it?


#2

i actually running surprisingly good vet deck right now so maybe not? and 'm not by any definition a vet main.
(lvl 15)


#3

S-Ranked. I can’t provide “proof” but so far it’s been working for not only me, but a lot of other people too. Although its pretty meme-y, if you tweak it right you can make Vetruvian work.

This Compendium would also be a nice start, particularly the Sajj one.


#4

I reached S playing exclusively Vet this month. Vetruvian is probably the worst faction atm, but the situation pre-shimzar was a lot worse.

Proof: http://mmr.host/user/envest


#5

I honestly do not understand why people are complaining so much about Vetruvian. Though I see they have a weakness in their lack of ranged removal, I also think that this weakness is what prevents the faction from being the strongest one by far. Proof of this was the state of Vets after Shimzar, but before the nerf to SE.

Vetruvian have a crazy early game, based on broken cards like Pax and Falcius. The late game also has offending cards like Aymara and Nosh Rak. On top of this, you have minions who are going to generate crazy value if not dealt with, like Nimbus and Obelisks. So yeah, I would argue that the lack of removals is well compensated by the best minions of the game.

Vetruvian are viable and are routinely led to S-Rank by skilled players. If their main weakness gets addressed, other cards would need to be nerfed to balance them.


#6

While I would argue that Vet needs a core design overhaul- the simple answer is no, Vetruvian isn’t dead. Not even close. It mostly just comes down to Vet having a weird combination of cards made for a completely different game than what Duelyst has become, and Vet often being more inherently player-skill oriented, with difficult, almost impossible micro decisions coming up frequently. With that in mind, if you want to play Vet, it’s perfectly viable (if you have the good cards,) but there’s a dramatic learning curve- and you’ll simply be forced to make hard decision after hard decision.

But when you get the hang of surfing it- playing Vet often feels like you’re pulling off a series of jedi mind-tricks. I recommend spectated F8D and Blankzero often for inspiration and insight.


#7

@tsevech
You want to know why the Vetruvian questioning is rampant? It’s because those value minions are easily answered within the current state of the game.
It is FAR too easy to answer Vetruvian’s good minions when you know Vetruvian has no answer of their own.

@RyanH
I’ve been playing your Zirix build as well as my own Sajj deck. That’s why I wanted to see someone climb from Silver or Gold to S-Rank. Climbing from only Diamond to S-Rank isn’t nearly as difficult.

@Envest
Which tier did you start from?

@paralykeet
I would mostly agree with your assessment of Vetruvian’s current state. Vetruvian is ill-equipped to remain viable in a meta that’s centered around solving the board and dealing out-of-hand damage.

Vetruvian’s tools are amazing when they match up to the scenario. Too often, though, they don’t match up.
I just passed my 200 Vetruvian win ribbon. Frustration with Vetruvian’s state keeps me from playing more.


#8

can you give me a tip how to get to s easily from diamond? last month i was rank 1 after being stuck in rank 2 for 2 months, now stuck in rank 3 don’t seem to be able to climb much.

on the topic i used to main vetruvian when started in around september, october, mainly sajj. after vetruvian nerfs i stopped playing them at all. i don’t enjoy the RNG of oblysks nor the worst and probably most expensive removal in the game. not sure how something like pax that i don’t even consider good or falcius that is good but after recent expansion hardly impressive, could be a justification for that.

it’s been a while since i’ve seen vetruvian on ladder, maybe they all are in s rank and don’t get mutched against plebs like me. the 1 turn kill sajj seemed ok when she was able to pull off her combo, seen even one turn kill zirix, it actually worked due to the surprise factor more than anything.

other times when i got matched against vetruvian playing an aggro deck it was a sorry view. he doesn’t have heal, aymara is quite easy to deal with, if the game gets to the stage when it can be played at all. having no heal and no removal makes it qute hard to achieve. i guess if you play good enough you could win games with vetruvian but fun it is definetly not, atleast not for me.
just hope they undo the dispell nerf to try and play sajj again if not i’d rather play reva or something, she atleast is fun to play.


#9

Really, there’s no easy way to say this, and i don’t really want to:

You are fired

Just kidding
Right now vet isn’t dead, the faction works pretty bad and get to s-rank is not this dramatic.

The problem with vet is their lack of removal and their slow “super efficent” minion and their lack for a “true” artifact centered strategy,

But that is not all: all the “megawow” vet’s minion are well known and their easy-to-play around/dispel/remove nature doesn’t help them.

Who ever replaced a removal on the verge of 6 mana turns against vet?

The lack of answers is not bad per se (yes it is, let’s keep it real). The knowledge of vet being the “removeless” faction allows other decks to make wrong plays and not being punished.

These are some reasons.
Vet is probably the hardest faction to play right now, and i like this. I don’t like to feel stupid every time they play decimus/kelaino/4windsmagi/nightwatcher/moloki/bloodmoon/shadowdancer/scintilla/thehealyonarspearguyiforgothisname/generalrangedminions/generalblastminions(but in this case they are good as they are playing vet).

Good day :slight_smile:


#10

No way I

Just want from lol 15 to 10 making my gold early with this set up.


#11

I don’t think Vet minions are so easy to deal with. If you spend a dispell on Pax, you don’t have it anymore for Aymara. Falcius has an Opening Gambit, so you can only hope to be able to position your valuable minions far from the general. Nimbus is slow, but he must be removed before it gets crazy.

I don’t know, I see that it may be not fun to be able to deal with ranged threats efficiently as a Vet. But it doesn’t seem to me that the factions is underpowered


#12

Even the ultimate vetruvian player aknoledge the faction is crap and has switched to another faction, something never happened before, so yeah… I’d say that there’s something wrong with he faction. And climbing all the way up to S-rank isn’t proof of anyhting regarding the weakness of the faction.

The only season I mannaged to pull my lazy ass all the way up to S-rank was when playing a windrunner magmar deck… So…


#13

I started at silver 11 and reached S within a week. I started losing a lot more once I reached S tho. Decks if anyone is interested:


#14

The main issue I see with vetruvian is their lack of healing. Nearly every deck I’ve seen will run aymaras, and the ones that don’t are usually just swarm decks. At the same time, the fact that most of vet’s staples can be removed by a plasma storm is also a problem.


#15

Fun fact, Vetruvian was actually on the border of death Pre-Shim’zar. Vetruvian has the worst core set out of all factions, it’s so bad that for the longest time all Vetruvian minions aside from Aymara Healer were unviable. In those days, it was so bad Vet’s best deck was Inner Oasis Mech and Arcanyst.

Is Vet’s current situation as bad as Pre- Shim’zar? No, not even close. Vet can actually play in-faction style decks(Something that wasn’t viable until Shim’zar) and can pilot these decks to S-Rank. I made it to S-rank with an Aggro Devish list(Funny fact, it was supposed to be a Midrange list with Third Wish but turns out that Third Wish lets you kill people on turn 5…) right after the nerf, I made it to Diamond before the nerf and finished the rest of the climb toward the end, picture proof below. So, no, Vet is not competitively dead.

Personally, I find the whole Siphon Energy situation to be over exaggerated quite a bit. Yes, it sucks quite a bit. But, people were cutting Siphon Energy from their deck before the nerf, around half of the lists I knew of recommended cutting Siphon. And there are ways to counteract a ranged unit, smart positioning and Shroud, Tigers, Third Wish ,and Ankh all are pretty good at handling units from a distance, it may not be as convenient as before but it’s perfectly doable(unless your opponent is Abyssian and sits in the corner surrounded by wraithlings with a bloodmoon.). I normally ever had too much trouble with ranged units as Vet, yes, there are games where I get completely wiped because I never drew Shroud. But, if Shroud is a replacement for Siphon then I would’ve never drawn Siphon and would be in the same position.

However, there’s no doubt in my mind that Vet is currently the worst faction. But that’s mainly a meta thing, right now Magmar is the most dominant faction which is Obelisk Vet, Vetruvian most competitive archetype, biggest weakness. Magmar has a lot of ways of shutting down Obelisk Vet like Natural Selection and Warbeast, but the the card that really puts the nail in the coffin is Plasma Storm which destroys pretty much everything in Obelisk Vetruvian. I’m not sure how standard Midrange Vet fairs, I feel that it isn’t fast enough to contend with the meta and other than that there is Sajj, who nobody has found a truly competitive deck yet. But, something to keep in mind is that the tierlist is actually really close. Vet is slightly disadvantaged over the rest of the factions, but only very slightly. A good Vet player can still make the faction tick.

To my credit, I’m a Vet main with 11 ribbons in the faction and been almost only playing Vet for nearly 10 seasons(I’m taking a break from Duelyst for a bit right now.). I don’t know everything about my faction, but, I believe I know enough so that my opinion at least has some weight to it.


#16

This deck is working really well for me too, with a couple of tweaks. It’s also really fun to play


#17

In short, no; if you want to see, check out f8_hots or amoore27 on twitch. They’re good players who streak frequently; amoore is frequently near or on top of the leaderboard for ladder at the end of the month playing Zirix.

Vet has their weak spots, but they’re not bad.

Also, @RyanH I think that way of giving analysis is sort of disingenuous; your results are more than likely form nowhere near an exhaustive summary. Especially if you started playing your lists in S, where the people you get matched with don’t try as hard because they’ve topped the leagues already.


#18

Dead? Probaly not. However, it does lack a lot of things that other factions take for granted, like ranged removal. So far, it is only able to squeeze out one or two good decks and is sparse in the tournament scene.

It is definitely the weakest faction right not, but is far from dead. If you are skilled or creative enough, you can have a fair bit of success with Vetruvian. All of the complaining is probably due to Vetruvian getting nerfed numerous times, with the most puzzling being the siphon nerf, the fact that it has remained the weakest faction for quite a while, and the fact that the Bloodborn expansion did not do much for the faction, with the attempts to bolster Sajj largely failing (in fact, most of the attempts to boost less popular generals have failed)

That being said, I still hope that Counterplay buffs Vetruvian in the upcoming patches.


#19

Personally, I don’t think that Vetruvian us dead, as they have strong core decks, and while I’ve gotten to diamond using a blistering fang Vaath deck (which sucked the moment I hit diamond), I find my mid-range Zirix and fly-truvian Sajj deck to work decent in the division’s meta. However, I do agree that Vetruvian us the worst faction for several reasons.
1.) Core Set
While Vetruvian had gotten some of the best card in the last expansions (albeit with some outliers like corpse combustion), their core set is terrible sure to repeated nerfs to the faction, making them more or less out of the Vetruvian faction’s new ‘theme’, mainly zoo supporting cards like inner oasis, orb weaver and fountain of youth.
2.) Counters
Night watcher, plasma storm, every dispel ever, displacement: needless to say, Vetruvian has the most counters against it.

Personally, I believe all factions need a core rework at the games current state, specifically with the awkwardness of Vetruvian’s core set amount other problems (Starhorn and Magmar keywords for example). A concept that I would love to see in the Vetruvian faction would be a version of @RyanH 's portal design, as it could help deal with range, displacement, and fit the faction theme design wise (inventors, time manipulators, so why not space manipulators as well?) and gameplay wise (ways to position your general to reach minions and counter displacement methods like daemonic lure). Of course, a lot of Vetruvian minions would need reworks with this addition, hence why I suggested a mass faction (not necessarily neutral cards) rework as opposed to a new expansion in Q1 2017 to address problems in each faction.


#20

Vet is only the worst faction due to its worst matchups being nearly instant losses. It’s still quite competitive.

I think one of the reasons it isn’t played much is because there are only two deck archetypes, artifact and Obelysk, and both require a bunch of legendaries (Nimbus, Hexblade, Gifts, Aymara, etc etc)