Is Reva the new "old zirix"?


#1

A bit of context 1st. What do i mean by “old zirix”? Well, for those who are kinda new, zirix 1st BBs was to summon a 2/2 dervish with rush (wind dervish). This made the general pretty broken, flooding almost the entire ladder. Why? Because he had straight damage every turn, with a lot of toys sinergycing with it: dune caster, scion 2nd wish, etc. To the point that with only but 2 or 3 cards in hand he could deal tons of damage or even kill you, EVERY TURN.
It was for me, and i guess that for many too (thats why the nerf), so frustrating to play against, because you had damage to your face every turn while you just tried to control the situation and not getting killed in the process, but he would just play more threats and damage you, while playing annoying powerfull minions and cheap spells every turn, and with little to no cards too.

Luckly that changed, and though zirix was dead during some time, he is coming back from it.

BUT, a new threat came, one that i personally fear its worse that even what zirix used to be: Reva.

Just to clarify one main difference, is that i dont see her THAT MUCH (a lot, but not just her): the ladder after shimzar brought a looot of new stuff, and i see every sort of decks every day.

BUT every time i come across a reva, i feel like just conceding, and after 3 or 4 games, just to stop playing.
Now, before anyone says anything, it is true this is somehow a “cry post”, and im currently playing a lot of vet, so that might has something to do with my experience.

What i feel is that EVERY card, in EVERY reva deck is a potential or direct threat. They are all just straight too powerful. This can be proven by the fact that songhai, specially reva, doesnt need neutral cards. There just isnt enough space for them, but not reason either for them to be included. The only one that sees play is “savage” owlbeast.
And those cards, if not dealt with, they just will deal tons of damage to you in one turn.
Just to name a few:

  • Katara: ive always seen this guy like a kaido power creep. Costs less, does more potential damage, allowing stronger combos and turns.

  • Lantern fox: well, no need to mention this. A cheap unit, that provides more cards that deal more damage and synergice so that other units deal more damage too.

  • Chakri avatar: i think its a good card, but in songhai it just gets retarded good, being able not only to deal tons and tons of damage to your face, but also growing making it harder to get rid of.

  • bacon boar: damage straight out of hand, that if not dealt with, just refill their hand so they can do more damage for a very cheap cost. This last two can also be mirror melded, making them twice scary.

  • ki beholder: nice card, but provides board direct board control, can be activated in the same turn, and if not dealt with, he ca be buffed by a lot so he can pretty much kill anything by afar or just deal damage.

  • magi: kills you while at the same time makes reva harder to kill.

  • savage owlbeast: a really strong card that pretty much makes the rest of the main units unkillable :confused:

Now, you try to protect your self: some of the cards or strategies dont work. Repulsor is useless since they can just dragon seal. If you cover your back from katara: juxtaposition, sending your unit far away and dealing backstab to you for 0 mana.

Apart from all this, i find some differences with old zirix that i think make reva a whole lot stronger.

  • she can kill you with or without board presence. Or summoming and activating, buffing and attacking with a unit out of nowhere, or just spiral technique you or just phoenix fire.

  • their hand doesnt get dumped… mana vortex, eclipse, lantern fox, killing edge a unit with backstab. They just have enough refill mechanics to never run out of steam and never end doing straight damage to you.

  • they have really strong straight foward opennings. Zirix didnt have really good 2 or 3 drops back then. Songhai not only does have them, but he also puts you in a hard spot, not to mention they can crush your openning too at the same time. They might just summon lantern fox or a katara, but they may algo lantern fox + inner focus > 2 damage to the face + mana vortex + phoenix fire your 2 drop, so you took damage, lost a unit, cant aceleratea and have to deal with a body that will just give him another spell, AND THEY DIDNT EVEN LOSE CARDS BECAUSE THEY ARE REDRAWING THEM.

So, i dont see how any faction can match against that. Im not saying they cant be beaten ( and i feel just so pumped when i do beat them), but it just feels so frustrating to see all of this. They can even just turn rhe game around every turn.

Some factions have really strong one turn winning conditions, but they depend on either search for an specific combo or setting a situation up earlier.

Now, maybe im the one that feel this, or maybe notm but i dont see a solutio really. With zirix, just the keyword “rush” being removed from the BBS was enough, but with songhai i wouldnt know how to start solving it. And thus it hasnt been this broken before, songhai has ALWAYS been a strong faction, not once it was “not in the meta”.

So, to sum up. Do you guys feel the same? How you deal with them? What has your experience been so far?

Sry for long post.


#2

I feel like the thing that makes Reva so good is the fact that they have inner focus + busy heavy spells that she can use immediately with her BBS, and the range factor immensely increases the power. Now compare the same Reva decks, but put Kaleos in her place. You know why it doesn’t work? Because his BBS requires a minion to already be on the board, making spell heavy decks be a lot better in Reva since she can summon a minion. I agree that Reva has a problem, but I would refrain from massive charges that could also harm Kaleos, who is not that strong currently.


#3

Sorry if i seem rude but while most of your points are valid you should try her a bit to find out she’s not an unbeatable death machine =) on paper lot of generals/factions have sick synergies but it doesn’t always go perfectly smooth

(sorry for the short post, will elaborate better when i’m home, not easy to write on the phone)


#4

It’s funny because I think the first time I have seen the Reva’s BBS I thought she was absolutely broken, look like it ended up being true only a few month after.

More seriously I think the comparison with zirix is quite bad seen both BBS have very few in common.

Songhai is a faction that it’s trying to attack from completely different angle than the others, most faction try to establish a board state make value while most Songhai decks just try to deal as much damage as possible while to keep them self alive. The first problem is that if you want to beat Songhai you have to make your deck worst against everything else, which is obviously not a good trade off, so you end up not having enough good tool to beat Songhai. To compensate this advantage Songhai should have worst cards in average, but we all know that’s far from being the case.


#5

Yeap, this is why I personally hate playing against songhai, like seriously. Especially as vet (I feel you too). People will say, oh jsut position yourself properly and remove her important minions. As a vet, when all your faction removals require set-up/ positioning or require point blank range, it just isnt possible most of the time.

And like you said, every single minion of theirs is a high priority threat, their playstyle is very uninteractive imo. Summon ranged units, buff them so they can isnta skill yourself while building their board and killing yours. Requires answer for everything they plant cause if not, you’ll just take shit ton of damage. And the four winds, Im not sure how balanced it is because for 4 mana, you geta 4-4 that heals you and deals damage. If you compare it with shadow dancer, it costs 5 and requires a board. Reva just dumps her hand and refills them.

I know I know every faction has their own weaknesses and i wholeheartedly agree. However, songhai jsut seem to be very consistent with the points you mentioned above. The worst part I guess, and why everyone is complaning about the faction is because it is just annoying to play against (for the majority or the people complaining anyways). They just aim for face, play stuff that needs answers on the spot and punish you if you dont answer them.

I really have no idea are they considered broken or balance as everyone seems to have different views and opinions on them, just wna say I feel you bruh :frowning:


#6

Even just trying to explain what they do without salt, the facts remain. Ironically that post attracts just as many players to the faction as it drives away.

While I actually love their flavor and think they have cool mechanics, I beleive they go agaisnt the core mechanics of the game(the board) that set it apart from other card games. So on principal since I actually want to play duelyst and not a card game I do not play or support them. If this where a card game I would probably main them, but it’s not, and they have also consistently been the Tier 1 deck all around.

Now back stab and short range teleports are cool, they still use the board. Juxtaposition would be fine if it’s range was limited just like Kals Bbs. Reva just does not use the board at all and on top of that is oppressive.

Now they are certainly beatable by applying pressure, using healing, and removing their key minions. Opinions on their playstyle aside, when they were not as strong as they currently are it was not as much of a big deal wether you loved or hated it.

From the hero win rate list I saw she had a good 10%win rate on everyone else, and that is quite excessive for a competive game. Now I can’t seem to find my citation at the moment, and it may have been a gauntlet list, but my point still stands, and from examining the latest tournament results, Reva is a bit over the top.


#7

Just want to point out that im not claiming she is unbeatable. But she simply has too many good stuff going on and i really think she is over the other generals. And i know it because ive played as and against songhai, and i dont think she is healthy for the game; not even for the faction itself: i dont remember last time i played against a kaleos, im not sure why would anyone play as him instead of reva actually.


#8

Siphon Energy is a thing. Honestly, Zirix is probably the best counter to Spellhai.


#9

Because when a Reva performs a heart seeker + inner focus + killing she
edge, or inner focusmost of the things she plays (battle pando, lantern fox, ki beholder) into any buff spell (killing edge, mist dragon seal, saberspine seal), siphon energy can totally be off use.

I’m not saying that your argument isn’t wrong (siphon works well on threats like 4 winds and lantern fox), but I think that the main problem is that Reva can gain automatic value of inner focus with her BBS, allowing her to do insane bursts of damage. Inner focus + inner focus is one of the biggest factors of Reva’s strength, as it allows her to perform crazy burst combos and be more spell heavy than her Kaleos counterpart.


#10

And most other removal from vet are “nearby your general” or just dont do the job late game :confused:

still the thing is not just “i lose to her because of vet” … i think she is over the all others in average.


#11

Uh, that list was made from a very small sample of players who volunteered their games as data. What it can tell us is actually very limited and it is definitely not useful as a comparison vs other games with far larger data sets.


#12

Eh fair, still gut feeling, personal experience, and latest tournament results are valid references.


#13

Yep, I’d just rather that people discussed those as evidence rather than a data set with a lot of flaws.


#14

I honestly think Four Winds Magi is the biggest offender. It actually encourages Songahi to be uninteractive, to just sit back and spam spells until you’re dead or about to be. It’s not like Shadowdancer, which actually requires minions to kill each other.


#15

Its hard to pin down exactly what the issue is, meldhai aside, since no one card in particular screams out I am to strong, its just the combination of everything. But you may be right four winds is a big offender, as it adds healling/defensive stuff to what should be an otherwise offensive faction. Vanar has absolutely 0 healing, is not intended to be overly aggressive, and does just fine. I think if any faction should not have any it should be Songhai.

The next biggest contender is the one that reactivates stuff.


#16

I think inner focus is fine. Is one of those spells that make the faction unique, and after buffing a bit, tou cant use it so …

While i hate four winds, i think some other cards are more powerhouses than him in general terms.


#17

IMO the simplest fix to songhai is the same as how Blizzard hit miracle rogue. Hit the card cycle. Having a huge tempo/burn combos wouldn’t be as much of a problem if it was harder to have a full hand afterwards.

I mean you could also hit their different forms of burn (I personally think that bloodrage mask and four winds are particularly problematic since they turn everything into additional face damage), but if you nerf one or both of those you run a greater risk of songhai just switching to another way to push damage into your face. Card cycle options are a lot more restricted but are just as integral to spellhai. CP wouldn’t have to turn as many knobs so they’d be more likely to get the balance right.


#18

major offenders in songhai i’d say?

Inner focus - pretty much, add rush to any minion you want, and get absurd value from them for no reason, 0 mana spells are pretty much the bread and butter of why songhai is busted atm. manavortex and juxtaposition are also major problem.

Manavortex - shouldn’t be playable as a simple cycle card, should only draw a card if another spell was played after it (would make songhai less consistent and therefore less oppressive to play against)

Juxtaposition - this thing is pretty much better than a repulsor beast’s ability, 0 mana for this is a joke, 1 mana is the bare minimum for a card that pretty much lets you ignore provoke while allowing you to actively push one of their major minions away from the fight.
meld - well… ya its meld, its just problemanic with boar, but it puts another major problem to light.

counterplay legit sucks at designing songhai, as cards like meld just push songhai more into an absurd little corner where they are only allowed to play with faction cards (its not uncommon to see a neutralless songhai player) and it just feels wrong that an entire faction is straight up encouraged to play in one linear faction by getting these absurdly powerful cards while only getting minor things like making generals battle pets that aren’t on their own strong enough to change the direction f the faction

tl;dr

0 mana cards are the major offenders.

meld reinforces this “only way to play songhai” sorta shit

Songhai is bad for the game because they commonly don’t build decks around neutrals (a big part of the game) play without a board, and are encouraged to play as uninteractively as possible through absurdly powerful cards like meld, inner focus, jux, mana vortex, four winds, latern fox, etc.


#19

I can see you have never played as a vet. Do you know how many times it has been where you need to draw siphon and you dont? And even if you did, I tried siphoning down all her main priority targets but there isnt enough siphons to silence. there’s ranged units which if you dont remove, killing edge and snipes you. Four winds magi, which basically means you’re gonna take a shit ton of damage next turn if you havent already. Chakris even, when they plany it in some corner and buff it to oblivion by “mist dragon seal-ing” it to your face for a ke-zillion damage.

With that said, siphon doesnt even remove the body, havent you noticed that vetruvians have 0 to no ranged removals? You’ll say rash/ star’s fury. Like wtf, how does 2 damage from rasha does anything? And star’s fury is mediocre at best for removing, it;s mostly used for fishing lethal or sometimes board clearing, however, positioning fkcs up the damage too cause you cant reach everything with your dervishes.

Blast? Blast artifacts? Blast minions? Come on, the minions are not as good as what the other alternatives provide, like starfire scarab for Kron? Pyromancer for healing mystic (when the meta is going so fast) and pax? Really? Blast artifact, spend 3 mana gain blast. And you still need additional buffs from falcius or bbs + positioning to kill something.

Zirix/ Sajj vs songhai is not favorable, mostly because it kinda means if you fk up your draw, you just lose. Vets have no proper heals, ranged removals and play the vale game with their health as a resource. When Songhai is the type of faction that doesnt care much about the board state and value, they just go for your face, how is that exactly favorable? Im not saying vets cant win songhai, Im jsut saying, 9 times out of 10, I die to songhai with reasonable draws aiming for my face which is ridiculous.

Im not gonna go around and yell for “NERF NERF NERF”, but imo I really dont find playing against songhai a fun thing and I think the posts above even mentioned something about reva having better winrates when compared to other factions and the fact that songhai is always dominant proves that the faction is strong, and annoying to deal with (for me and OP at least).


#20

flytruvian actually doesn’t perform terribly against songhai.

but really vet doesn’t have any better a matchup than any other faction. they need kron in that matchup to strand a chance.

that being said, and with over 900 games under my belt and commonly hitting S rank… its just dumb that i die when my mana finally hits 6, that despite drawing good openers and having a solid hand im just powerless because he drew literally THE BEST hand. no other faction just slams you in the corner and really just makes you feel like “well nothing i could have drawn/did would have helped this game, i lost the moment he rerolled part of his starting hand”

the only good thing about the vet vs songhai matchup is cheap dispels, which lets you push damage on face better. but vet isn’t about playing agro so unless you model your decks to be able to play agro at the tip of a hat, you’re going to just lose at the startup screen.