Oh I’m fine with people complaining about things, I just don’t tend to feel the need to try and stop them from complaining because they annoy me. My general position is that it’s up to me to not respond to threads of people talking about something I’m not interested in rather than trying to get other people to stop talking about that thing (using social pressure, in my example). Playing matches in a meta you don’t like doesn’t put pressure on anyone else unless you’re BMing people.
Is Lyonar underpowered?
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Becoming less and less true by the day. Outside of your aforementioned titan decks, immo often gets only a 2x in ziran lists (tempest outclasses due to friendly fire) and swarm lists (too slow megaLUL).
Have a present:
Eats any list not running anything which rhymes with “dunder porn.” And even then, 6/10 you just buff your minions out of horn range anyway LOLOLOLOL 
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Lyonar lack transform-based removal options, which is a disadvantage. When your opponent drops something terrifying:
Songhai: Onyx Bear Seal
Vetruvian: Blood of Air
Magmar: Thumping Wave / Egg Morph
Vanar: Aspect of Shimzar
Lyonar: …Martyrdom?
Would you care to elaborate? Why would you run a universally applicable card like Holy Immolation only two times? In which match-ups don’t you want to see a card that is almost your only source of direct damage and that also heals up a minion for future uses? Or in what cases do you want to play Immolation but feel like a third one would be unwarranted?
I’d argue that Immolation is either a none-off or a three-off. The card is so broadly applicable that you either want its effect, and then you want it as often as possible, or you don’t want it at all (probably only because of cost considerations).
And OT: I think Lyonar is currently underpowered due to its design. The complete absence of good single target/transform removal combined with a lack of immediate burst always puts them at the mercy of their opponent. The whole play style can be summarized as play and pray. Even their most likely strongest archetype, Titan, requires a board and is so easily identifiable that the opponent has three to four turns to dig for their best answer cards. That’s why Lyonar is the fairest of the fair. Everything they do, they always give their enemies the chance to react before bad things happen. You can’t play nicer than showing your opponent what you are going to do and then giving them the chance to deal with it before you do it. Long gone are the times when Lyonar’s minions were so strong that they could fight through the opponent’s removal. The average power level of removal/control cards has risen throughout the past couple of expansions, yet Lyonar still plays 3/10 Provoke minions with no immediate effect :feelslyonarman:
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The complete absence of good single target/transform removal combined with a lack of immediate burst always puts them at the mercy of their opponent.
I agree with your assesment of Lyonar’s weaknesses. Though I disagree that it makes them underpowered by design.
Ideally Lyonar and Magmar should do similar things, play big minions that outlive everyone.
The issue you pointed out (very powerful removal) is a much bigger issue for Lyonar, since their way of outlasting is usually powered by healing, which doesn’t do much when you’re suddenly a wraithling/fox/Panda/removed/… but only against damage. (Which is probably why a Lyonar Songhai rivalry is a thing, since Songhai doesn’t remove, they deal damage)
This issue isn’t underpowered by design since i don’t think it was the intent, but it is a natural consequence of amping up the powerlevel of the game. A lot of cards have fallen out of favour this way. (If CPG had only given Magmar Grow, they’d be in a similar situation, for example.)
I would say, though, that Lyonar does have direct impact cards and the recent Brome-Swarm decks shouldn’t be underestimated (despite none of them having any immediate impact). Also don’t forget the Argeon BBS + Tiger Combo (which I admit did get nerfed but was a holy terror in most matches).
What is true is that Lyonar is the ‘boring’ faction, in that they play stat-sticks and don’t get that many benefits from them. They work mainly through stat increases or decreases (healing, buffing, -this +that, etc.) so they really need something to stick (as you pointed out).
The problem is, if they ever give (big) Lyonar minions a way to reliably stick, you will kill your opponent. A lot of very powerful things are only held back by the amount of removal this game has.
That’s the issue Lyonar is facing, it can’t do what it wants to do because of removal but if it ever can it’ll be hilariously oppressive.
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Great post, but with OBS being popular and Bamboozle even this has changed. Ironcliffe Heart punishes the opponent for spawning Panddos but that’s hardly compensation.
Agree. Poorly worded by me. They aren’t underpowered by design, they are (currently) underpowered due to their design. CPG certainly wouldn’t design a faction with the outright intent of it being underpowered. But the prevalence of strong creature removal makes it very hard for a faction that relies on minions as their removal and - ultimately - as their win condition.
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That always seems to work for me though. Ironcliff is still one of, if not the best 5 drop in the game, (Lavaslasher is basically the only competetion) and with provoke he actually has an immediate effect. Between Warjudicator and Aegisbarrier you also have the tools to combat most of the removal options that run around. Not to mention that a typical Lyonar deck has more threatening minions than the opponent has removal. If you play Dioltas at 4, Ironcliff on 5, Iron Cliff + Aegis at 6, Prominence + BBS at 7, how many of those do you think your opponent will be able to answer? Doesn’t even have to be something big, sticking a Lion in the lategame can win games between Bond/Immolation/Afterblaze. (actually had a few 21 damage lethals out of Lions in my brome deck using Bond + Afterblaze.)
Honestly, i think people here are confusing usage with viability. Lyonar is much stronger than the current usage suggests.
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You can’t quantify factions as good or bad, you can only say they are good or bad compared to other factions and lyonar is a little underwhelming compared to other factions atm.
I was expecting a more common consensus, but I guess I was wrong. Discuss away, I suppose.
Sure! Swarm brome values openers above all just like any other swarm deck. 9/10 you are developing t1-3 or looking for a buff to close things out.
However, immo can still be useful in the midgame by healing up a large threat like auroara or forger (dissuades AOE in favor of dongle target in non-vanar mu) or by dealing that last bit of chip and clearing away body blocks for that grindy lethal.
Hence 2x: you’re replacing this in your opening hand, but it’s a solid topdeck for swing turns or grindy mu’s. 2x enables you to draw this consistently by midgame and (rarely) lategame if you need it while preventing 2x hand clogs outside of unlucky mulligans, increasing the consistency of your openers.
Tl;dr: 2x because it’s not universally applicable, and the one area where you don’t want it (openings) is the deck’s most important aspect. however the value is too good, so we leave 2x for consistent midgame draws
Hope this helps!
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Well i can only speak for myself, but whenever i feel like climbing seriously then Bond Argeon is one of the first decks i consider for this because of how well it performs and if i felt like playing tournaments and had to pick a line up, the deck would most likely be a part of that line up. I know how underwhelming decks feel like, i usually spend half the month using them, and Bond Lyonar is certainly not one of them.
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Perhaps you can share your list? It’s been a good while since the last time I made a bond argeon list do well in ladder.
In tournaments, lyonar would be my last choice, behind even abyssian. Specially how well magmar, songhai and, to an extent, vet are doing in the meta atm
In recent news, Rhacker won the most recent Monolith Invitational using his Brome Mech Titan list, even beating Dragall’s Obliterate Cassyva with the list. @kevin2hard is also currently top 10 S (based off of Bagoum’s live S rank ladder) with his Zir’an lists. I don’t believe that Lyonar is currently underpowered at the moment, yet some of their decks/archetypes may just need a bit of refining to be better suited for the meta.
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They were underpowered until Magmar got nerfed. Whenever Magmar is prevalent in the meta Lyonar suffers.
I’m ok with Lyonar being out of the meta more frequently than other factions (assuming it is) because it’s the first faction you unlock. So if Lyonar is generally underpowered (which I’m not convinced is true), that forces new players to check out all the factions to see which ones they like. If Lyonar is always good, some players will just only ever play Lyonar.
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All of the factions are close enough in power that it would be nearly impossible for a new person to determine the true viability of any faction relative to the others, especially with only basic cards available.
I’m repeating myself but forcing players to do things the way you want is not good. The correct way is to reward them for playing a certain style.
And don’t twist it saying it rewards players for trying other factions. Punishing a player for choosing to play one faction is not good.
This doesn’t imply that playing lyonar os punishing, just commenting on your statement
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I think its more dependent on what exactly is being forced upon the player. For example if my wife tries to manipulates me by rewarding me for doing dishes and work around the house, I don’t think most people would be concerned, but if she attempts to manipulate me by getting me to buy her expensive jewelry then some people would call that a gold digger (although she would never do that). In any online game some form of control by the managers must be used as is the case for real world government, the real concern is what that form of control is promoting.
Also, wouldn’t you call rewarding someone for playing a certain playstyle a form of control since it punishes people who don’t play the preferred playstyle?
You’re missing the point. Nothing is being forced upon the player, the player is not being controlled.
The whole purpose of it is to allow the player to be free and play as he/she wants. BUT in the ocasion that the designers believe that a certain playstyle or a certain action makes the game experience more enjoyable, rewarding a player for playing the game in such way is a good way to encourage the player to do so.
This way you’re not taking the freedom from the player to decide by him/herself how he/she thinks is the most enjoyable way to experience your game