Is Lyonar underpowered?

[pfcmickey]

Also, wouldn’t you call rewarding someone for playing a certain playstyle a form of control since it prevents other playstyles from being used therefore punishing people who don’t play the preferred playstyle?

You’re missing the point. Nothing is being forced upon the player, the player is not being controlled.

The whole purpose of it is to allow the player to be free and play as he/she wants. BUT in the ocasion that the designers believe that a certain playstyle or a certain action makes the game experience more enjoyable, rewarding a player for playing the game in such way is a good way to encourage the player to do so.

This way you’re not taking the freedom from the player to decide by him/herself how he/she thinks is the most enjoyable way to experience your game

[phoenixtoasches]

So if Lyonar is generally underpowered (which I’m not convinced is true), that forces new players to check out all the factions to see which ones they like.

I think where our main disagreement stems from is the wording of @elPatoPoderoso’s post. While he did use the word forced, I do not think that accurately describes the situation he was trying to convey. Players are not forced to check out new factions it is just the natural state of things because if Lyonar is underpowered compared to other factions what competitive player would stick with Lyonar? I think this case is very similar in the opposite respect which is even if Lyonar is perfectly normal in power level, but by playing other factions you get rewards that give you the advantage competitively, what competitive player would stick with Lyonar?

You see how similar these two cases are? Even if the managers are not directly forcing you to play a certain factions, by rewarding you for playing their preferred factions you ARE forced to play those factions otherwise you are being essentially punished (from a competitive player’s viewpoint at least).

[elPatoPoderoso]

What @phoenixtoasches said. Some players want to explore everything, some players want to stay in their comfort zone. Lots of those people will stick with Lyonar (because it’s the only faction unlocked by default) unless they have a good reason to switch. Lyonar being out of the meta for at least one expansion a year is a good reason to check out the other factions and see what they like.

[kirabi]

I am going to disagree with alot of you guys Lyonar is “an accident” waiting to happen.They are just one card away from people downright hating them.All it took was Slo to push Argeon over top last time, The Meltdown nerf pushed Ziran back to earth. Here is the thing Lyonar has same design flaw as Magmar you keep making beefy independently good minions at some point this happens

3.Silverguard Knight 4.Thunderhorn 5.Lavaslasher 6.Prominence 7. Peacekeeper

In this fantasy scenario CPG gave Lavaslasher to Lyonar you can see how silly the scenario of that curve is to play against.Yes Lyonar has some obvious weakness but hasn’t really stop lyonar in past.The truth is at least in my opinion we have been dodging bullets with card design we are one Lavaslasher Argeon or Armada Ziran away from people going “CPG loves lyonar,why don’t they ever make bad cards for them”. I mean that how it was for Magmar it went from MagSad jokes to why in world do you guys have 3/5 Taygete and later 4/9 Lavaslasher.

[owlbeastmd]

Lol what faction isn’t one card away from infamy? Crutches have been a thing since the game’s inception. Revenant, slasher, inner focus/blood rage mask, etc…

Also critiques to your points:

1- slasher doesn’t fit the lyonar theme. Lyonar is an answer or die faction bar low curve tempo builds. Also, slasher would have been stupid in any faction it was put in, so where lyonar fits into this is questionable.

2- dodging bullets, magsad jokes, and slasher: exactly! One of CPG’s biggest weaknesses has always been printing crutches for weaker factions. Taygete for old mag, kelaino for old abyss, chromatic cold for old, OLD vanar. You’re correct, but the “dodging bullets” problem is not unique to lyonar.

[ZyX]

I am going to disagree with alot of you guys Lyonar is “an accident” waiting to happen

You mean like how Phantasm/Tiger/Revenant was for Abyss, or Azure/6-Bird was for Vetruvian, or a third of Magmar/Vanar cards in the previous three expansions were, or Assassination Protocol/Deceptib0t was for Songhai were all real and actual ‘accidents’.

Which is to say that this is the CPG design system, and Lyonar is just dodging getting the good broken stuff somehow.

[kirabi]

The point was meant to be Lyonar is overall pretty good despite appearances and one card can push the pendulum to over the top.Your question works better with generals and Ilena and Sajj aren’t one card away imo. I mean it more in terms of Tier 1 decks Ziran,Argeon and Brome are all one card not necessarily a broken one away from being really good.

-Ziran just needs a Finisher, Meltdown proved that Ziran decks can hang with any deck in game ,it just need a definitive way to close out the game.A card like Armada would have been perfect for Ziran.

Argeon needs also a finisher ,Saberspine tiger was always fine in Argeon. It would be nice to see them to make faction specific rush minion for Lyonar

Brome i think is pretty okay they just need to adjust bbs to be put in 3 spots in front of Brome

[kirabi]

Which is to say that this is the CPG design system, and Lyonar is just dodging getting the good broken stuff somehow.

Actually yeah pretty much they were trying with Peacekeeper,Excelious,Dawns eye,call to arms,Ironcliffe monument,Sun sister,Solaris,Halo Bulwark and they keep whiffing. It is actually pretty amazing they haven’t gotten one right. Well yes Titan and Surgeforger kinda count but yeah every faction has gotten something stupid and Lyonar is over due

[ZyX]

In fairness, I think Surgeforger is pretty darn bork but only for a specific Brome deck so it is more of an Aurora’s Tears rather than a Falcius. Not a fan of Titan since it simplifies/invalidates a third of potential cards that can be used in a deck-building situation.

I’m in the boat of players above who have the opinion that it is more a case of other factions being above the power level at various times, rather than Lyonar being under a certain power standard. I’d still like to see death to Divine Bond, but they’ve successfully shifted Lyonar away from that play style in the majority of players’ minds.

Also - I think Tiger and Revenant both got their cost increases for an entirely different reason to general perception - it’s because they’re stupid with Darkfire Sacrifice into Stygian Observer in that type of Lilithe deck (and Tiger with Unbirth as well). Argeon just got unintentionally shafted in the process!

[thematsjo]

I’m ok with Songhai being out of the meta more frequently than other factions (assuming it is) because it’s one of the more difficult factions to play. So if Songhai is generally more difficult to play well (which I’m not convinced is true), that prevents new players from getting frustrated before they get invested in the game. If Songhai is always good, some players will leave the game out of frustration because they can’t win with the dominant faction.

CPG should definitely not be consciously punishing players’s winrates just for playing the faction they like. If a player likes sticking with the faction they played first, that decision should be up to them. We already have daily quests to promote people playing different factions anyway.

The truth is at least in my opinion we have been dodging bullets with card design we are one Lavaslasher Argeon or Armada Ziran away from people going “CPG loves lyonar,why don’t they ever make bad cards for them”.

I’d upvote this twice if I could!

Generally: I think I agree with others here that Lyonar might just be fine again after the most recent patch. With Magmar and Vanar getting toned down in the late game I feel pretty safe suggesting that Lyonar will bounce back. It doesn’t hurt that Lyonar is especially strong against all the Songhai running around and has tools to manage the Vetruvian matchup (although Vet is still almost always an uphill battle). Swarm and Bond seem likely to appear back on ladder soon.

[elPatoPoderoso]

I stopped playing Songhai and abyssian a while ago. I have 4 (maybe 5) lyonar ribbons, mostly playing ziran decks. I’m very sympathetic to players not wanting to play all 6 factions. And I’m ok with a few factions being on top at any given time. But lyonar is a special case because it’s the first faction anyone plays. There’s nothing wrong with lyonar being someone’s favorite faction, but I want to encourage players to at least get every faction to level 11 and I expect some players won’t do that unless they keep losing with lyonar.

[owlbeastmd]

Agreed. Tbf I’m with you that lyonar isn’t underpowered atm. My only points previously were that they are the fairest faction when overtuned. Hence why lyonar metas are generally the fairest

[nickDigger]

On the topic of Lyonar being the dumb dumb faction. Chunkypapa came up with the idea for a SpellBrome deck. It’s beautiful. Currently durdling around with it in S-Rank.

(Replaced Warblade Adept and Silverguard Knight with Sun Wisp and Loremaster)

Certainly not a beginner friendly deck due to its cost, but it’s a nice change of pace. Steadily trading blow for blow with the enemy until they run out of health. Could use two or three Dawn’s Eye to give it a more proactive role in the mid-/late game, but I’m kinda hesitant to blow so much Spirit when the card is going to rotate out of Standard and the new game modes have yet to be announced.

[kirabi]

What would the dawns eye replace?

[nickDigger]

What would the dawns eye replace?

I have no idea. Would have to test different versions. Holy Immolation, Aperion’s Claim, Sundrop Elixir, Loremaster, Tempest, Lucent Beam… so many cards that I could imagine only running as a two-off. First and foremost Dawn’s Eye represents damage to the face, so I would probably start by replacing cards that also fill that specific role: so Lucent Beam probably. Or maybe Holy Immolation which is already a bit iffy with the low amount of minions. But really no clue. I’m still inexperienced with the deck

[tsevech]

What about testing Call to Arms in this deck?

[akurane]

I have faced a version of this deck several times in S rank. The combination of Sunstrike and Lucent Beam is very powerful, and in many cases makes up for the nerf to Immolation Cats (6 mana can heal your general 3 and any other allies in the row and deal 7 damage to the opponent and 3 to all enemies in the row vs now 8 mana deal 7 damage to your opponent and 4 damage to all nearby enemies).

[nickDigger]

What about testing Call to Arms in this deck?

Certainly needs testing but I don’t have high hopes. One of the biggest strengths of the deck is that it dodges a significant amount of the cards that the opponent plays. All their creature removal and dispel cards become useless draws that take up deck space without any gain (this is why I removed the Windblade Adept/Silverguard Knight/Afterblaze from Chunkypapa’s original list). When your opponent never gets the chance to use his creature removal/dispel, you can be sure that he will have it ready whenever you do eventually play something that can be targeted by them.

So I wouldn’t run Call to Arms because the chances are that your opponent will have some sort of dispel just waiting in their hand/deck to be used. And even if he doesn’t, you will have to fight through quite a lot of removal before you get any value out of your minions. That would probably still be good because you only have to spend one Mana for your BBS to trade for your opponent’s removal spells which most likely cost more than one Mana, but I’m still not sold as seven Mana is such a huge Mana investment in the first place.

But might be worth it. Would need to test it. Not sure if I have it in me to craft two or three Call to Arms though. The big downfall of Duelyst: so many cool cards to test, so few of them non-legendary D:

[thematsjo]

Whelp * unzips *, here we go again.

Will try this concept soon!