Is Lyonar underpowered?

[owlbeastmd]

Would you care to elaborate? Why would you run a universally applicable card like Holy Immolation only two times? In which match-ups don’t you want to see a card that is almost your only source of direct damage and that also heals up a minion for future uses?

Sure! Swarm brome values openers above all just like any other swarm deck. 9/10 you are developing t1-3 or looking for a buff to close things out.

However, immo can still be useful in the midgame by healing up a large threat like auroara or forger (dissuades AOE in favor of dongle target in non-vanar mu) or by dealing that last bit of chip and clearing away body blocks for that grindy lethal.

Hence 2x: you’re replacing this in your opening hand, but it’s a solid topdeck for swing turns or grindy mu’s. 2x enables you to draw this consistently by midgame and (rarely) lategame if you need it while preventing 2x hand clogs outside of unlucky mulligans, increasing the consistency of your openers.

Tl;dr: 2x because it’s not universally applicable, and the one area where you don’t want it (openings) is the deck’s most important aspect. however the value is too good, so we leave 2x for consistent midgame draws

Hope this helps!

[baharoth]

Well i can only speak for myself, but whenever i feel like climbing seriously then Bond Argeon is one of the first decks i consider for this because of how well it performs and if i felt like playing tournaments and had to pick a line up, the deck would most likely be a part of that line up. I know how underwhelming decks feel like, i usually spend half the month using them, and Bond Lyonar is certainly not one of them.

[pfcmickey]

Perhaps you can share your list? It’s been a good while since the last time I made a bond argeon list do well in ladder.

In tournaments, lyonar would be my last choice, behind even abyssian. Specially how well magmar, songhai and, to an extent, vet are doing in the meta atm

[akurane]

In recent news, Rhacker won the most recent Monolith Invitational using his Brome Mech Titan list, even beating Dragall’s Obliterate Cassyva with the list. @kevin2hard is also currently top 10 S (based off of Bagoum’s live S rank ladder) with his Zir’an lists. I don’t believe that Lyonar is currently underpowered at the moment, yet some of their decks/archetypes may just need a bit of refining to be better suited for the meta.

[F8D]

They were underpowered until Magmar got nerfed. Whenever Magmar is prevalent in the meta Lyonar suffers.

[elPatoPoderoso]

I’m ok with Lyonar being out of the meta more frequently than other factions (assuming it is) because it’s the first faction you unlock. So if Lyonar is generally underpowered (which I’m not convinced is true), that forces new players to check out all the factions to see which ones they like. If Lyonar is always good, some players will just only ever play Lyonar.

[buddybluebomber]

All of the factions are close enough in power that it would be nearly impossible for a new person to determine the true viability of any faction relative to the others, especially with only basic cards available.

[pfcmickey]

that forces new players to check out all the factions

I’m repeating myself but forcing players to do things the way you want is not good. The correct way is to reward them for playing a certain style.

And don’t twist it saying it rewards players for trying other factions. Punishing a player for choosing to play one faction is not good.

This doesn’t imply that playing lyonar os punishing, just commenting on your statement

[phoenixtoasches]

I’m repeating myself but forcing players to do things the way you want is not good.

I think its more dependent on what exactly is being forced upon the player. For example if my wife tries to manipulates me by rewarding me for doing dishes and work around the house, I don’t think most people would be concerned, but if she attempts to manipulate me by getting me to buy her expensive jewelry then some people would call that a gold digger (although she would never do that). In any online game some form of control by the managers must be used as is the case for real world government, the real concern is what that form of control is promoting.

The correct way is to reward them for playing a certain style.

Also, wouldn’t you call rewarding someone for playing a certain playstyle a form of control since it punishes people who don’t play the preferred playstyle?

[pfcmickey]

Also, wouldn’t you call rewarding someone for playing a certain playstyle a form of control since it prevents other playstyles from being used therefore punishing people who don’t play the preferred playstyle?

You’re missing the point. Nothing is being forced upon the player, the player is not being controlled.

The whole purpose of it is to allow the player to be free and play as he/she wants. BUT in the ocasion that the designers believe that a certain playstyle or a certain action makes the game experience more enjoyable, rewarding a player for playing the game in such way is a good way to encourage the player to do so.

This way you’re not taking the freedom from the player to decide by him/herself how he/she thinks is the most enjoyable way to experience your game

[phoenixtoasches]

So if Lyonar is generally underpowered (which I’m not convinced is true), that forces new players to check out all the factions to see which ones they like.

I think where our main disagreement stems from is the wording of @elPatoPoderoso’s post. While he did use the word forced, I do not think that accurately describes the situation he was trying to convey. Players are not forced to check out new factions it is just the natural state of things because if Lyonar is underpowered compared to other factions what competitive player would stick with Lyonar? I think this case is very similar in the opposite respect which is even if Lyonar is perfectly normal in power level, but by playing other factions you get rewards that give you the advantage competitively, what competitive player would stick with Lyonar?

You see how similar these two cases are? Even if the managers are not directly forcing you to play a certain factions, by rewarding you for playing their preferred factions you ARE forced to play those factions otherwise you are being essentially punished (from a competitive player’s viewpoint at least).

[elPatoPoderoso]

What @phoenixtoasches said. Some players want to explore everything, some players want to stay in their comfort zone. Lots of those people will stick with Lyonar (because it’s the only faction unlocked by default) unless they have a good reason to switch. Lyonar being out of the meta for at least one expansion a year is a good reason to check out the other factions and see what they like.

[kirabi]

I am going to disagree with alot of you guys Lyonar is “an accident” waiting to happen.They are just one card away from people downright hating them.All it took was Slo to push Argeon over top last time, The Meltdown nerf pushed Ziran back to earth. Here is the thing Lyonar has same design flaw as Magmar you keep making beefy independently good minions at some point this happens

3.Silverguard Knight 4.Thunderhorn 5.Lavaslasher 6.Prominence 7. Peacekeeper

In this fantasy scenario CPG gave Lavaslasher to Lyonar you can see how silly the scenario of that curve is to play against.Yes Lyonar has some obvious weakness but hasn’t really stop lyonar in past.The truth is at least in my opinion we have been dodging bullets with card design we are one Lavaslasher Argeon or Armada Ziran away from people going “CPG loves lyonar,why don’t they ever make bad cards for them”. I mean that how it was for Magmar it went from MagSad jokes to why in world do you guys have 3/5 Taygete and later 4/9 Lavaslasher.

[owlbeastmd]

Lol what faction isn’t one card away from infamy? Crutches have been a thing since the game’s inception. Revenant, slasher, inner focus/blood rage mask, etc…

Also critiques to your points:

1- slasher doesn’t fit the lyonar theme. Lyonar is an answer or die faction bar low curve tempo builds. Also, slasher would have been stupid in any faction it was put in, so where lyonar fits into this is questionable.

2- dodging bullets, magsad jokes, and slasher: exactly! One of CPG’s biggest weaknesses has always been printing crutches for weaker factions. Taygete for old mag, kelaino for old abyss, chromatic cold for old, OLD vanar. You’re correct, but the “dodging bullets” problem is not unique to lyonar.

[ZyX]

I am going to disagree with alot of you guys Lyonar is “an accident” waiting to happen

You mean like how Phantasm/Tiger/Revenant was for Abyss, or Azure/6-Bird was for Vetruvian, or a third of Magmar/Vanar cards in the previous three expansions were, or Assassination Protocol/Deceptib0t was for Songhai were all real and actual ‘accidents’.

Which is to say that this is the CPG design system, and Lyonar is just dodging getting the good broken stuff somehow.

[kirabi]

The point was meant to be Lyonar is overall pretty good despite appearances and one card can push the pendulum to over the top.Your question works better with generals and Ilena and Sajj aren’t one card away imo. I mean it more in terms of Tier 1 decks Ziran,Argeon and Brome are all one card not necessarily a broken one away from being really good.

-Ziran just needs a Finisher, Meltdown proved that Ziran decks can hang with any deck in game ,it just need a definitive way to close out the game.A card like Armada would have been perfect for Ziran.

Argeon needs also a finisher ,Saberspine tiger was always fine in Argeon. It would be nice to see them to make faction specific rush minion for Lyonar

Brome i think is pretty okay they just need to adjust bbs to be put in 3 spots in front of Brome

[kirabi]

Which is to say that this is the CPG design system, and Lyonar is just dodging getting the good broken stuff somehow.

Actually yeah pretty much they were trying with Peacekeeper,Excelious,Dawns eye,call to arms,Ironcliffe monument,Sun sister,Solaris,Halo Bulwark and they keep whiffing. It is actually pretty amazing they haven’t gotten one right. Well yes Titan and Surgeforger kinda count but yeah every faction has gotten something stupid and Lyonar is over due

[ZyX]

In fairness, I think Surgeforger is pretty darn bork but only for a specific Brome deck so it is more of an Aurora’s Tears rather than a Falcius. Not a fan of Titan since it simplifies/invalidates a third of potential cards that can be used in a deck-building situation.

I’m in the boat of players above who have the opinion that it is more a case of other factions being above the power level at various times, rather than Lyonar being under a certain power standard. I’d still like to see death to Divine Bond, but they’ve successfully shifted Lyonar away from that play style in the majority of players’ minds.

Also - I think Tiger and Revenant both got their cost increases for an entirely different reason to general perception - it’s because they’re stupid with Darkfire Sacrifice into Stygian Observer in that type of Lilithe deck (and Tiger with Unbirth as well). Argeon just got unintentionally shafted in the process!

[thematsjo]

I’m ok with Songhai being out of the meta more frequently than other factions (assuming it is) because it’s one of the more difficult factions to play. So if Songhai is generally more difficult to play well (which I’m not convinced is true), that prevents new players from getting frustrated before they get invested in the game. If Songhai is always good, some players will leave the game out of frustration because they can’t win with the dominant faction.

CPG should definitely not be consciously punishing players’s winrates just for playing the faction they like. If a player likes sticking with the faction they played first, that decision should be up to them. We already have daily quests to promote people playing different factions anyway.

The truth is at least in my opinion we have been dodging bullets with card design we are one Lavaslasher Argeon or Armada Ziran away from people going “CPG loves lyonar,why don’t they ever make bad cards for them”.

I’d upvote this twice if I could!

Generally: I think I agree with others here that Lyonar might just be fine again after the most recent patch. With Magmar and Vanar getting toned down in the late game I feel pretty safe suggesting that Lyonar will bounce back. It doesn’t hurt that Lyonar is especially strong against all the Songhai running around and has tools to manage the Vetruvian matchup (although Vet is still almost always an uphill battle). Swarm and Bond seem likely to appear back on ladder soon.

[elPatoPoderoso]

I stopped playing Songhai and abyssian a while ago. I have 4 (maybe 5) lyonar ribbons, mostly playing ziran decks. I’m very sympathetic to players not wanting to play all 6 factions. And I’m ok with a few factions being on top at any given time. But lyonar is a special case because it’s the first faction anyone plays. There’s nothing wrong with lyonar being someone’s favorite faction, but I want to encourage players to at least get every faction to level 11 and I expect some players won’t do that unless they keep losing with lyonar.