Duelyst Forums

Is Lyonar underpowered?

#1

I know we are tired of this kind of discussions, but I’m curious. Never have I seen someone, both inside and outside the forums, complain about Lyonar. I’ve seen plenty of Mantra Songhai, Finality Magmar or Seraphim Vanar. As for Abyssian or Vetruvian, at least they have cards that are regarded to be powerful within the community, such as Spectral Revenant or Blood of Air.

It’s a peculiar phenomenon, to see players regard Lyonar as the “fair” faction, while everyone else plays “unfairly.” In these types of situations, it’s kind of awkward to main Lyonar. It’s still my favorite faction, but I want a consensus nonetheless. So tell me, is Lyonar underpowered?

#2

back in the old days, divine bond argeon was OP

dioltas was a power card

good times

#3

Have you not played during Lyonar metas? Plenty of nerf threads then. Just because they aren’t on top doesn’t mean they’re bad :slight_smile:

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#4

There was a time when Tempo Argeon was the alleged top deck of the meta, and it lasted for months. Holy Immolation and Trinity Oath were among the most complained about cards in the game.

Lyonar has only seemed less powerful with the rise of Magmar, which is known to counter most decks the faction has to offer. It’s still quite strong, and if a faction like Songhai rises to power, I wouldn’t be surprised if I saw more Lyonar on the ladder.

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#5

well… titan is fun. and it still works.

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#6

Lyonar isn’t underpowered, its just a fair faction in the grand scheme of things currently. With any card game, anything that is only fair doesn’t really cut it for most people, who want to win or climb ranked. You want the most OP, unfair or the deck with the least amount of counters against it. Which is why as soon as a new deck from an expansion rises up, a lot of people start playing it rather quickly.

Lyonar might have one of the most talked about cards for people wanting to nerf with Holy Immolation (along side Warbeast from Magmar), although that was more last year than this year. So its not like Lyonar doesn’t have powerful cards, its just not enough for most people at the moment.

#7

Lyonar is the most honest faction, so it rarely gets flak. Divine bond and old slo were the only questionable cards it’s had out of beta. Also- I’m fine with lyonar metas for the above reason

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#8

Heolyonar was top tier last expansion and even then people didn’t complain that much.

I think most people feel like Lyonar is the most fair faction; it’s very tempo based and doesn’t have a lot of combos, so you kinda know when you’re about to get destroyed. They also have the least amount of control in any faction and rely a lot on just trading efficiently,

People don’t like getting squashed by hard removal, option limiters, or combos. Lyonar does not focus on these so even if the faction is in a strong state, people will not complain as much as they do with other factions.

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#9

Their out of hand burst is capped at 9 (roar holy tiger) too. Very nice :slight_smile:

#10

Actually, with the new legendary you can increase that damage by 3 for each time used prior in the game, unless the opponent dispels you. Though not like anyone would run that card…

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#11

Lyonar is still pretty strong from my perspective. With Midrange Vaath and Lavaslasher nerfed, Ziran has more room in the meta for her Healyonar decks. Brome seems to be pretty well rounded, being able to do either Titan, Zoo, and even more Zeal or Divine Bond focused decks due to his Bloodborne spell working really well with cards like Afterblaze, Holy Immolation, and Ironcliff Heart. Argeon can play decks like Titan and Divine Bond, but recently I faced Dragall who was playing a Tempo Lyonar that featured Sunstrike that was really strong. Keep in mind that the card changes are still fairly recent, so they still have room to claim their spot in the meta.

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#12

Titan is particularly strong atm

#13

The rising prominence of control oriented cards leaves many of lyonar’s playstyles vulnerable. Single target removal in particular blows out the huge minion play style that had previously defined Lyonar.

Nowadays, the only “viable” Lyonar playstyles are swarm Lyonar and, to a lesser degree, Healyonar both of which are often outclassed by the sheer power available to top tier Magmar decks.

All in all, no Lyonar is not underpowered, it’s just harder to pull off their core theme.

#14

Healyonar was top tier last expansion?

Now this is just me nitpicking but the last time Ziran was top anything was pre Meltdown Nerf.

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#15

No. Lyonar has been pretty good in most metas. Sure, they fight ‘fairly’ most of the time - they put minions on the board and win through hitting you repeatedly with them - but their minions are strong enough to do that. Other factions have weaker minions and have to gameplan differently.

#16

Maybe except Magmar?

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#17

I think the reason why Lyonar is considered fairer than Magmar, generally, is that Magmar uses their minions to remove yours first, and extra damage done to the general is a bonus. They sort of two-for-one with their minions on a regular basis, without the other player able to do much unless they position very carefully. Lyonar just puts stuff down and says, “Can you remove this before I beat you down?” It is much more honorable. :slight_smile:

3 Likes
#18

Oh I’m not tired of these discussions at all. If I’m not up for a particular discussion I just don’t take part instead of complaining about the complainers. I’m sure there are others like me on this front.

Times have certainly changed on this front. Lyonar has had exactly two top tier decks in my time with the game: Tempo Argeon and Meltdown Zir’An. Tempo Argeon kind of ruined the faction’s reputation for a good while and every other archetype within Lyonar languished because CPG was trying to keep Lyonar in check and they finally killed the archetype after nerfing Slo, Windblade Adept and Saberspine Tiger. Meltdown Zir’An is kind of a corner case because it was only good because it was best suited to abusing the most meta-defining card of the time (Meltdown) which made it more of a fluke than anything else.

I’d flip that question on its head by asking “Is every other Faction overpowered?” because I think Lyonar currently provides a template for an almost entirely fair faction in Duelyst. Lyonar is fine, it has good, interesting cards that revolve around positioning minions on the board and allows for good (counter)play. The issue is that most of the other factions (except Abyssian after the patch) can’t say the same. We’ll see how things develop now but I think that goes a long way in explaining why Abyssian and Lyonar are so low on the totem pole of power.

Lyonar currently has three cards that are occasionally discussed as being too strong: Divine Bond, Holy Immolation and Trinity Oath. I agree with the first two of those.

Divine Bond isn’t a problem currently but it severely limits what cards CPG can print because the risk of breaking something (like Celerity) is so high due to this card. One-shotting the opponent with a 23/10 Guardian on 6 Mana feels good when you’re dishing it out but it really sucks to get blown out like that (like Mantra) even despite needing a wind-up turn. If a Bond deck were to be actually strong again I think a lot of people would complain about this card again.

Holy Immolation is the crutch that’s keeping Lyonar afloat almost single-handedly. Titan decks can’t run it but that’s probably the only thing keeping it from being an auto-include almost everywhere. I’d welcome a nerf to Immolation (perhaps it should center on your General) but it’s likely that the entire faction collapses if it’s not compensated for.

Trinity Oath is a great card but it’s overrated and hasn’t been causing any problems. I’ll leave discussion on this card for elsewhere.

If Lyonar were to become great again people might complain about them again but because Lyonar has been passed over for a few expansions in an effort to tame Tempo Argeon we’re way behind on the unfair-power curve.

I can’t believe they actually made the card that bad, it’s such a devastating waste of design space. Maybe if it got discounted for every minion you have on board it’d be playable in swarm.

I’ve seen this sentiment on several occasions but I don’t see it substantiated in my play. Is this an S-Rank thing?

That’s a very pretty way of putting it, bookmarking that shizz for the next time someone asks about how Lyonar plays.

2 Likes
#19

At least be consequent then, if you don’t like a meta, don’t play it and don’t complain about it. But i guess that would be too much to ask right?

No, it’s not. Swarm Lyonar just got support with this expansion and everybody seems to think that the deck with the newest cards is the best, but it’s not. Titan is probably the best Archetype rivaled, if at all, by midrange Lyonar.

@ Topic No, Lyonar is perfectly fine, it’s just that they didn’t get any OP cards with the last expansion so nobody has new toy syndrom and therefore they don’t see much play.

Their old archetypes are still perfectly fine. Titan basically means you win the game at 7 mana unless your opponent has EMP or can kill you next turn. That cards powerlevel is crazy and given how good Lyonar minions are it’s not even much of a drawback to only use minions. The fact that you can forego both of Lyonars so called “OP cards” trinity and immo, and still have a top tier deck kinda speaks for itself.

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#20

With Rebuke nerfed and Magmar seeing less play now, that new 2/2 legendary could be pretty strong in Swarm Brome. That was a good deck before the expansion hit, but was hurt because of the popularity of Magmar. I think it is a good choice for ladder right now.

(Full disclosure: I am playing two Lyonar decks right now - one midrange Arcanyst and the other a Divine Bond deck with 3x Giago and 3x Ironclifee. However, I do think Swarm Brome is a better meta choice, I just don’t really feel like piloting that deck right now.)

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