Is Holy Immolation balanced?


#29

I’d like to see Holy Immolation no longer hit the enemy general, and all rush minions be unable to attack the enemy general on the turn they are played. I understand Lantern Fox is a high concern card for a lot of people, but I’m not sure what a fair correlative nerf would be.


#30

Heres my solution - Holy Immolation - Restore up to 5 Health to a friendly minion, and deal damage around it equal to the Health healed.

This means that dropping a minion won’t have as much of an effect, but a wounded minion can potentially get a bit more damage squeezed out.


#31

Overall, I would say that this is a card with very high potential power. However, the thing that holds it back is the need to be combined with a well positioned unit.

The problem is that it is really easy to get a unit where you want with Lyonar. Lyonar has three of the most reliable 2 drops in the game as well as slo, which is absolutely devastating with Immolation. I would rather see some of the lyonar’s 2 drops or slo nerfed than immolation.

TLDR: for a faction with some of the best early minions and Slo, immolation’ requirement is too easy to fulfill


#32

This card should be nerfed. After all, it’s the best spell in Lyonar. There are still a few people who aren’t playing Reva, and this is bad for the game.


#33

HI needs to go. Ignore Spectrev, Fox, Warbeast, Aymara, Falcius, Inner Focus, Pax, Kelaino, or Taygete, this one card needs to go because I positioned myself poorly against the most predictable faction in the game and got tilted.

From a non bias standpoint though, I don’t even run 3 HI. The opponent always sees it coming and prepares their units. It takes an entire turn of mana early game and there are much better options late game. I’d rather develop a Dioltas on 4 mana than deal 4 damage face and wipe 1-2 units.


#34

Let’s also ignore the 5 mana 8/8 that a certain faction can drop in your face on turn 2, and can’t be dispelled. If you can’t get rid of it, you lose. That’s on top of their ridiculous draw, dirt cheap spells, the ability to make anything into a rush minion, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

But yeah, Holy Immolation is definitely the game’s BIGGEST problem.


#35

hey man dont get salty, it is just a discussion, it helps to know other peoples perspectives and arguments.
anyway your reva post was hilarious.


#36

This is what separates card games from chess, however, for the game to be strategic and not “omg that card is so OP and broken”, they have to obey the same principle of equal cost and equal value. The only thing that needs to be different is flavor, and ways of achieving so. A good example would be Primus fist and healing mystic.

Why does primus fist share the same value of a healing mystic? And why both of them, although good, but are not considered game breaking? they are staples in their respective deck archetypes and even fit in some which they dont belong to.

Firstly, Primus fist grants a nearby minion additional 2 attack for that turn only. So the condition is you need to have at least a minion on board, and somewhat positioning to squeeze 2 extra face damage off to a minion or the general. And provided the general has no board after that, he is not stuck with a minion that maybe has 1 health left after the trade with a permanent extra 2 attack from primus fist. So, this prevents the aggro deck from snowballing too hard.

now for healing mystic. This minion does the exact opposite of primus fist, but of equal value. Why? you see, the extra 2 attack for efficient trading or face damage is valuable to an aggro deck. As for a control/ midrange deck, they might value their health on their generals or minions more, because when faced off vs an aggro deck, they know the game is sealed if they manage to stabilize the board without dying in the process. Hence, healing for 2, negates the bonus damage from a primus fist. thus, if the healing mystic is played preemptively as a 2 drop, it loses value cause, no health is lost yet. Same goes for primus fist, when there are no other minions on board to squeeze out the value.

I hope my above wall of text answered your question for:

Now, as you see, that both cards offer very different flavor and function because your main concern is how to grant the same power level yet different card for every faction: [quote=“nickDigger, post:28, topic:5335”]
So you want every faction to have Holy Immolation?
[/quote]

All in all, it is never a good idea to introduce OP cards to balance out other OP cards because this well disrupt the strategic thinking of the game into a game of “let’s see who draws their OP cards first” and “who has the more OP card”.

This is exactly what shimzar did, the primary reason for the fast metagame and enahncing the “answer/dispel or die” situation. Since the game already has an inherent problem of making it a ccg that requires a board to interact; yet, creating cards that are uninteractive and ignores the board eg. the keyword ranged, blast, spells with infinite range, rush minions that can move and attack immediately (if they die, it’s ok, it’s just a removal, but 9/10 times things like makantor survives and make you take more damage and lose more value), minions with effects that basically loses you the game if unanswered: kelaino, four winds, bloodmoon priestess (the most broken of all of them because spawning a token for killing of a token is ridiculous value)and shadowdancer (might’ve left out some).


#37

Not gonna lie, this took me a second to figure out. Does anyone even run Bladeseeker consistently anymore?


#38

That would literally butcher the card and make it trash.


#39

I think he was talking about Mech Starhorn, Bladeseeker isnt something you want to dispell, and isn’t spell immune.


#40

I dont think the people suggesting to make it require a damaged minion are totally thinking that through, while it sounds nice on paper, how often do you play as, or against Lyonar and have a damaged minion left on the board? Or are capable of damaging your minion against something that isnt the enemy general and having it live for an immolation?


#41

I remain unconvinced. Ironically, I even think that your example is off. Yes, Primus and Mystic offer themselves up nicely for a comparison because their numbers are so comparable, but to me the Primus is a much, much better card because aggressive plays are much stronger than defensive ones. The way you compared those two and declared them of equal strength is similar to what Magic: The Gathering did in its early days. In Alpha they printed a card cycle of Instant spells that all cost 1 mana and had an effect for three (and obviously were meant to be of equal value). The interesting comparison here are the two cards which dealt damage and gained life: Lightning Bolt and Healing Salve. One did 3 damage, one gained 3 life. Now, one of them quickly turned out to be trash while the other remains the benchmark for above-the-curve damage spells up to this day.

Same is true for the Primus and the Mystic. My general doesn’t care whether he’s at 15 or at 25. As long as he isn’t dead, his life total doesn’t make a big difference. It might make a difference in terms of my strategy and how aggressive I can still afford to be when I’m near very low life total, but outside of that, the Mystic doesn’t give much value when healing my General (and even than: 2 life rarely ever allows me two switch between being on the defense and going on the offense).

Now, it can also heal minions, but even then it’s much weaker because - again - it needs very specific conditions to work. Your minion needs to trade with something that has 2 or less attack, survive that attack in the first place or have to remain on the field with very low hp until the start of the round. Something which doesn’t happen that often due to the aggressiveness of the overall game play. Primus on the other hand opens up the opportunity to make the attack’s of my minions go from non-lethal to lethal. Unlike going from not-full-health to full-health, this is an actual qualitative change. Primus allows me to trade my low-cost minions for much bigger ones, it allows me to close out games by adding the extra 2 damage – in short: it allows me plays which have a significantly bigger outcome than having a heal for 2 does.

No, I don’t think Primus and Mystic are of equal strength. I’d take the Primus over the Mystic every day. Why does no one cry about the Primus being better than the Mystic? Because everybody has access to them. And no one thinks they’re super swingy because they are still 2-drops after all and as such of limited power.

Now, how do you compare cards with much more complex effects? I.e. Holy Immolation has a situational requirement, you need a minion which already adds huge complexity to the cards effect because that minions has a mana cost, it represents an additional card, it needs to survive a turn OR be dropped in the same turn, it needs to move/be dropped in place, if it was played in a round before it can also attack for free at times due to getting healed, and so on and so on.

What I’m trying to say is: comparing cards on an individual basis is almost pointless unless you compare two very basic cards. The context that needs to be taken into consideration is much too vast and outside of “Well, they both deal 3 damage, so that means they’re equal” I think it’s almost impossible to precisely value the absolute strength of any sort of effect. All you can go by is your gut feeling and as the Primus/Mystic-example has shown our gut feeling already differs greatly when it comes to such basic cards.

I think the only way to properly balance cards is to play with them and then have a look at the results. If a faction just keeps winning all over the place, then one might have to take a look at the cards that allow said faction to do that. And then one might identify a certain card that is at the center of all the trouble and try to change that. But I don’t think it’s as easy as “Holy Immolation just killed of 3 of my creatures again, clearly this card is broken and needs to be toned down”.

I feel like Lyonar is in a good place right now. It has good match-ups, it has bad match-ups, sometimes it feels like you’re in full control of the game, sometimes it feels as if you brought a handkerchief to a gun fight. Is Holy Immolation strong? Yes. Is it one of Lyonar’s strongest cards? Yes. Right next to Arclyte Regalia and Ironcliffe. Does it need a nerf? I don’t think so. It’s the only strong removal spell Lyonar has that doesn’t just break down and cry when it sees a minion that is a bit bigger. I mean, what cards does Lyonar have to regain tempo? Tempest, Skorn and Immolation. I can’t think of anything else that would allow me to get back into a game or catch-up when I’ve fallen behind in the first one or two turns and Tempest/Skorn only work against a very specific set of creatures.

If you think Holy Immolations needs a nerf, you should play a couple of games with Lyonar against any decent Songhai player. You feel like a little stupid dog that’s running after a car. Take away Holy Immolation and you take away Lyonar’s ability to re-actively interact with the game in a profitable manner.


#42

I can only agree to disagree, like you said that we pretty much differ from preference, perspective and even to gut feeling. While I agree that Songhai is another problem of its own, doesnt Argeon have a decent match up vs them? Argeon’s 2 drops and early tempo minions are the strongest amongst all the factions. one of the reason why Argeon is quite at the top of the meta is due to it being able to out tempo a Songhai, meaning they have quite a decent match up vs them.

Regarding Holy immolation being a card that allows Lyonar to be able to reactively interact with the game is a fair point. But a lot of the issues with Duelyst atm is that a faction is held together not by ALL the faction cards, synergy and identity, but in fact a few staple cards.

Vetruvians are the best example, Siphon, falcius, pax, aymara are the cards holding it together. Now siphon is taken away, you can see the obvious decline in their popularity, consistency and ability to even react to threats. Magmar used to be held together by one card - Makantor. With the amount of other good supporting cards helping the faction out now, such as taygete, thumping wave and even the rework to silithar (egg mechanic), it is not doing better ever, in fact I think they’re one of the strongest decks up there.

As for faction synergy, Songhai is the best one to indicate that. You can see that Songhai never ran cards that are considered good to every other faction because their faction cards are better. Why? Cause they promote insane synergy. Reva Spellhai is the prime example, how their cards complement one another is just insane. the spell damage from fwm and cyclon, their cycle cards, lantern fox giving more ammunition. Juxtaposition, inner focus, killing edge and so on. The faction really is overtuned I agree, but the faction really shows how a faction should be working, where their cards work with one another, instead of having a few key cards defining their identity.

Lyonar has the best 2 drops in game, their 2 drops are unparalleled. However, lyonar also has the issue with having a lot of unplayable spells. The ones that are used atm are just too good to not be included. Such as holy immo since you jsut need a minion, you can pretty much always hit 2 targets because it hits face damage, and fully heals your minion. Another problematic card that defines the faction is Divine bond. The epitome of answer or die. When Lyonar can drop an ironcliffe on your face no matter where you are due to air drop, it’s kinda ridiculous. You’re basically in a situation where by you know that if you dont remove it, you’ll most likely die to that one card. Not much counterplay involved, no positioning, just answer or die, completely draw dependent. However, their faction needs just a slight tweak to make in-faction synergy better. Like making divine bond give a minion attack equal to its health, instead of a bonus. Making holy Immo castable on damaged minions, or remove the face damage, so Lyonar can have better “big” cards to have this “gigantic provoke” identity, creating a different archetype than its current identity as a tempo/ aggro deck.

Abyssians have quite good in faction synergy too. Swarm Lilithe lacks a few solid cards to make it viable. Cassyva has a lot of creep support from Shimzar. Not much to be said here except for some cards that are overtuned like rot9m, that card is at worst a 5-3 and a 1-1. And it demands dispel. Or bloodmoon priestess. Spawning a token from killing off a token is insane value no matter how you look at it.

This issue is always brought up when a single card outperforms the other cards too much and will severely affect the faction if removed or have their power level tampered with.

TLDR: Instead of having a few key cards that holds a faction together, it should be the in faction synergy that defines the faction’s identity.


#43

[quote=“snowwy, post:42, topic:5335, full:true”]
I can only agree to disagree, like you said that we pretty much differ from preference, perspective and even to gut feeling. While I agree that Songhai is another problem of its own, doesnt Argeon have a decent match up vs them? Argeon’s 2 drops and early tempo minions are the strongest amongst all the factions. one of the reason why Argeon is quite at the top of the meta is due to it being able to out tempo a Songhai, meaning they have quite a decent match up vs them.[/quote]

Could you write a detailed guide on how to beat Spellhai as Lyonar? Because the tears already start flowing for me whenever the loading screen shows me a Reva. And I’m not talking about Gold-level Spellhais, but S rank. On my grind to S this month I played a handful of games against Revas that were between S 150 and S 1 and it never ever felt even remotely close. Now, the match-up seems very technical to me due to all the different routes Reva can take and the positioning of his minions and the short time frame in which the games are decided, and I most likely just suck at it, but I never felt like it being a good match-up. And more importantly: I had no clue what I could do to improve that. I couldn’t think of any cards that would turn the match-up around. Decimate for their ranged/kite tactic? They just go face. Aegis Barrier for Ironcliffe? I am probably already dead by turn 6 or close enough to being dead that they can just burn me out. I’d be super interested in hearing your thoughts on the Lyonar-Songhai match-up. 2-drops don’t get you anywhere, when they die as soon as Reva looks at them funny.

[quote=“snowwy, post:42, topic:5335, full:true”]
Regarding Holy immolation being a card that allows Lyonar to be able to reactively interact with the game is a fair point. But a lot of the issues with Duelyst atm is that a faction is held together not by ALL the faction cards, synergy and identity, but in fact a few staple cards. [/quote]

But the thing is: no matter how evenly you balance cards, you will always have cards that are better than others. Only the margin decreases by which they are. Even if CP somehow were able to make all cards close to being equal, people would still flock to those few who are only the tiniest bit better than the others because there would be no reason not to. All cards would have to be completely equal and as such interchangeable for people not to play the same 40 cards. Perfection is an illusion and people will always play what’s best, no matter of it’s by a mile or by a meter.

[quote=“snowwy, post:42, topic:5335, full:true”]
Another problematic card that defines the faction is Divine bond. The epitome of answer or die. When Lyonar can drop an ironcliffe on your face no matter where you are due to air drop, it’s kinda ridiculous. You’re basically in a situation where by you know that if you dont remove it, you’ll most likely die to that one card. Not much counterplay involved, no positioning, just answer or die, completely draw dependent. However, their faction needs just a slight tweak to make in-faction synergy better. Like making divine bond give a minion attack equal to its health, instead of a bonus. Making holy Immo castable on damaged minions, or remove the face damage, so Lyonar can have better “big” cards to have this “gigantic provoke” identity, creating a different archetype than its current identity as a tempo/ aggro deck. [/quote]

I agree that Lyonar doesn’t have much in-faction synergy and this is sad. But… Divine Bond? The irony is, Divine Bond was the reason I liked Lyonar so much in the first place. Its capability to close out games out of nowhere made it very interesting to play with. Instead of just having a Plan A, there was always the possibility for you to win the game on the spot if the opponent just gave you the tiniest opening. But the reality is… I haven’t played with Divine Bond in over a month and in the 160 games I’ve played this month I have had exactly 1 opponent use Divine Bond against me. And that opponent would’ve won the game anyway, because I couldn’t handle the Ironcliffe irregardless of it having 3 or 13 attack power.

Everybody knows about Divine Bond and plays accordingly. The last time I killed anyone with Divine Bond was a couple of weeks ago when I was still playing in Silver and Gold. When people face Lyonar they know that they just need to clear the board every turn and keep up dispel/removal for the Ironcliffs. So much even, that I feel like it’s better for Lyonar not to run Divine Bond because you still get the benefit of the opponent believing that you have it and as such making bad trades just to stave off a potential Divine Bond kill, whereas as Lyonar player you can take full benefit of that and just run other cards that are actually useful. Unless the opponent is new to the game, Divine Bond is just a win-more card.

[quote=“snowwy, post:42, topic:5335, full:true”]
Abyssians have quite good in faction synergy too.[/quote]

Here we agree. I like Creep Cass a lot. I have never played her, because I’m poor, but whenever I played against her, the games were very interesting. If all their cards come together they are devastating and nigh unbeatable, but their average draws make for very interesting, synergistic games. At least they did for me (:


Nerf threads here could really use a nerf
#44

For your amtch-up, I needa know your decklist and if possible your gameplay. If that’s too troublesome, try watching some streamers play the deck, it is quite a common deck so Im sure you wont have a hard time finding people who are good playing the deck and check out their decklists.

As for perfection, things dont seem right if you dont use the best as the guideline. Perfection is an illusion i agree, but it is waht we strive to achieve that that makes things better, gain progress.

As for divine bond, my point still stands. You find it interesting to paly with, however, i dont believe many actually enjoy playing against it. With ironcliffe and Dioltas in the game, DB is really kinda insane considering if you cannot remove it on the turn it’s played, you’re kinda screwed. And considering how the faction has the best 2 drops in game, it already is kinda hard to contest their early board. With perfect draws (I know this applies to every faction), you really might be just completely overwhelmed by the opponent. But this situation applies to everyone I guess, this meta is so fast because early turns decide most of the outcome of the game.

As for Cassy, yeap that thing is my plan B, considering vetruvians got nerfed bad and i do not like playing Dervish vet, or want to experience a headache every time I see something played in the back. However, Im also too poor to afford the current list. Im kinda worried for the future of Duelyst with the upcoming expansions. They want to have expansions every 3 months or 6 (I dont rmb). Either ways, this makes it very hard for new players to catch up and even normal players that might spend a buck here and there (like me) might have trouble catching up too. Im not saying they dont need to make a living, we should buy orbs, their promotions and what not, just saying I’ve seen this in Hearthstone before and what they did was just announced that they will be implementing the standard format out of the blue and people who dumped money for expansions were really pissed (me included).


#45

This is the list I’m running. I feel like it should have everything to beat Songhai: plenty of dispel, ranged and up close, plenty of AoE ping effects, plenty of Provoke, the potential to finish games quickly via burst and even some life gain. My “play style” is whatever it takes to reach S in the fewest wins possible. I don’t care much about pet cards or anything, I just want to lead the Sunshine Knights to victory and this list is what I’ve eventually settled on.

Yet I falter against Songhai. What’s the solution?


#46

The general issue here is that you run it like a control deck with circle of life and too many dispels. I dont play Lyonar but from the games i have played against them, I have a rough idea of their playstyle and deck list. Drop the Lightbenders, Circle of life and tempest. Try swapping in afterblaze for draw and making your faction minions with zeal and actual threat along with the cycle. As for other cycle cards, you can choose between spelljammers or sunwisps. Also slot in some Slo, that thing is a turn 1, 0 cost lock, or basically a “cast anywhere” holy immolation. I would consider dropping one Skorn and slot in one more tempest.

As for dispel options, i think Sun bloom is good, but I find that this thread with lyonar players prefer Shrouds. I think it’s because as Lyonar, you have enough provokes and reach with SLO or tiger as well as a low enough curve to reach their minions and dispel them with shroud( which at least provides a body).

I would also consider dropping one Regalia, the card is amazing dont get me wrong, but I find it a bit clunky and situational to play that card. Playing that card while being behind on board is kind of a bad idea.

Like I said, these are from watching other people’s gameplays and personal experience vs a Lyonar, not so much as one. But this thread can help you out, it;s quite recent and people here are willing to help.


#47

Relative to other spells for the same mana cost, it is obviously overpowered, particularly with the 0 mana pet which lets you essentially drop it anywhere. But every faction has its own power cards, and Lyonar seems fine in terms of overall balance.

So it’s not balanced, but that’s ok.


#48