Ironclad should Dispel Enemy Generals as well as Minions, it's simply too expensive manawise


#1

As the topic states, Ironclad is far too expensive at 5 mana to be of much use.

EDIT/PROPOSAL: Some people took this to mean it should dispel both sides (the whole board), I don’t think that, I think it should dispel all ENEMIES. Including the enemy General. The title of the thread has been changed to reflect that. The the card should be worded as follows: “DYING WISH: Dispels all enemies” instead of Enemy minions, because of the time, the setup, and the resource management it takes to proc him after play, etc.

I am sorry if you thought I meant the whole board, I am editing this to avoid further confusion.**

The stat-line is fine, but ultimately at Diamond or higher it simply isn’t flexible enough to be a deck’s sole form of Dispel. There’s no reason to take Ironclad over the far more flexible Ephemeral Shroud, or the even better Lightbender, both of whom work as OPENING GAMBIT abilities instead of needing the minion to die in order to work.

I run a DYING WISH oriented deck, and I’ve been play-testing Ironclad for weeks now since the day it was released. DW abilities are generally weaker in many respect than OG abilities, and this is to be expected, but when you factor in the cost to play Ironclad, with say a Consuming Rebirth, Ritual Sacrifice, or the zero cast Darkfire Sacrifice for example, you’re still having to use other cards to proc his Dispel.

Since Ephemeral Shroud was nerfed to encourage people to look elsewhere for Dispel options, Ironclad seems like a great choice for people like me, working to ramp things and take their time.

However if an opposing General has been enchanted (which for Lyonar and Magmar can be obscenely powerful), Ironclad is effectively useless, expensive, and just another body waiting to get shredded.

Dispel should work universally, like it does for both Lightbender and Ephemeral Shroud. At 5 Mana, this makes what could be a big tactical payoff circumstantial, which doesn’t bode well for competitive play.


#2

That would be a good small tweak to make an uplayable card decent. Siphon Energy I think could use a similar tweak. Still would no be a great card but could be useful if it had the same tile-targeting effect as Sunbloom or Chromatic Cold(can target generals and spellproofed minions).

These changes would make it so that you still need to proc the deathwish/be within melee range to silence your target(conditional) but they would have a few more useful situations opposed to almost none.


#3

The whole point of the card is that it isn’t generally useful. This card already does a ton of dispel. You should not make it able to work on everything, because that will just mean that everyone runs it and the decks that cannot handle this effect are hated out of the meta.


#4

What makes it better than Lightbender? Light bender dispels all the spaces around it ,including generals, for 4 mana and you get a 3/3 body. Ironclad is a dying wish that costs 5 mana on a 4/3 body for a more lack luster effect, because your opponent generally gets to decide when it happens. Letting Ironclad dispell all the things, including yourself, doesnt sound like such a bad a idea to me.


#5

What makes it better? It is a stronger effect because it is a global effect. I can dispel far more than 8 squares on the board. Whether this situation comes up frequently determines whether it is “better”. It is certainly more situational. Cards like this are a safety valve for cases where vetruvian obelysks are everywhere or suddenly the magmar grow deck becomes very competitive.

As for dispelling the opposing general: This is just hate for Vaath, and I do not think that is really warranted. Give Vaath grow decks a chance!


#6

Ironclad shines in Abyssian like I’ve said from the start.

If you have the deck that supports it, it’s really nice (yes not many people run that deck, but that’s fine, it goes for many cards). It definitely should not dispel everything, that would make it worthless in a dying wish deck (you would cripple your own board).


#7

It may be good in a single specific deck type, but having a bit more versatility wouldn’t hurt. Even with these changes I don’t think the card would be played regularly, just slightly more viable.


#8

The card is still 5 for a 4/3 that has to die to work.
@rebound
As stated, I’ve spent weeks running it in different decks, if you don’t have multiple ways to combo-proc it’s effects, he literally sits around waiting to be dispelled himself before he dies.

He’s too expensive, too weak of a body (Remmber Lightbender is a 3/4 who immediately cna dispel everything the turn he is played, he doesn’t need another card in combination to be useful).

I think a lot of decks would run him, though not all. What I think would happen is decks that are shoehorning in Ephemeral Shroud or Lightbender would have a “go-big-or-go-home” choice.

Also see above, I edited this thread to explain that I think it should only dispel enemies, as the card already does, only including the enemy General (not just minions). Just an FYI, I might be asking for it to be stronger than you think by being so specific, but I feel strongly about it.

Remember he’s 5 mana, plus whatever else you need to spend to sack him for immediate proc. He is actually more expensive in terms of mana/resources than the card implies.


#9

@Aeruniel, @karma97, @rebound, and @BlankTrack (I’m addressing all your points in one reply, maybe this will be easier. Sorry It’s early, pre coffee here =P.)

I literally think the card should state “DYING WISH: Dispels all enemies” instead of Enemy minions, because of the time, the setup, the resource management, etc.

I am sorry if any of you thought I meant the whole board, I am editing this to avoid further confusion.

He doesn’t exactly shine in Abysissan, he’s…maybe a good pick for something like the Gauntlet. I main Abyssian, and even though the tools are there to combo him, once again, when you hit diamond you will face many decks which enchant the opposing General.

But also because decks which need to be freed up in their early moves to grow won’t be forced to take Ephemeral Shroud instead, even post nerf. (It’s incredibly hard not to just shoehorn him, and Lightbender, in instead and to hold onto them in case of emergencies rather than for there to be multiple, equally decent dispels which would work better according to style).

Yes Lightbender dispels even your units in a radius, but it’s easy to get used to using it without it affecting you much, if at all and the effect is immediate, without the need for other cards, AND for less mana, so the downside is minimal.

Yes more people would run Ironclad if he dispelled the Enemy General as well as all Enemy minions. He would be fairly priced, instead of overpriced and too situational to be your only dispel option at a competitive level…

I am running all the Abyssian cards to proc him, AND lurking fear to make him cheaper AND he has proven himself to be too expensive/slow and limited in scope of effect for competitive play.

As for “Vaath hate”? I don’t feel that way about it, (in fact I wasn’t thinking about any deck types when I made this assessment, moreso just that factions who do this are very hard to counter without taking Ephemeral Shroud and Lightbender for most of the factions). It’s not my intention to disrupt the Meta, I merely want this to a different, and RELIABLE form of Dispel, so the Meta has more viable options. Remember, even with a Darkfire Sacrifice to get him out early (if you play Abyssian), or for other factions, you still have to be able to sac him to get an immediate effect. Meaning a commitment of resource that no other dispel requires to be effective.

Most decks which enchant generals do so mid-game (Turn 4 is where this starts minimum), this proposed change to Ironclad gives you a solid counter which needs a lot of resources committed, and puts some pressure on those decks to respond if Ironclad is left out there for a turn or two.


#10

Eh, why not? The card is still going to be an utter turd, there’s no harm in making it slightly shinier.


#11

@raqyee

I think this change would make him actually useful in Abyssian decks based around Lurking Fear, and for other Dying wish Decks for other Factions which use Unseven for example. Whereas he’s not even good enough for those specific kinds of decks as is currently.

He also would be a bit more universal to other types of decks, and could free up the 2 slot or the 4 slot for players who are drawing things out. So I think he’d be playable this way, instead of overpriced and too limited. A decent choice if your deck warrants it. I’m also tired of having to shoehorn in Ephemeral Shroud (which competitive play this month has basically forced me to do. Even with the nerf.)

He would be solid for what I need him for (hard counter for a close game’s win condition, board control against ranged minions, or a chance to eek out a comeback), Instead of dead weight much of the time.


#12

A card slightly below the power curve getting a minor buff can be enough to put it into relevancy.
An awful card getting a minor buff is irrelevant, therefore my comment.


#13

No I got you, I just think he’s almost not a turd as you put it. :smile_cat:


#14

@blinda
I was replying to this:

Including it to dispel the enemy general is ok for me, but if we’re talking about slightly buffing cards the Astral Crusader is the most in need of a buff, this is not in such a bad state imo.
I also don’t think people will change opinion on him to be honest. Dispelling a general is only good against 3 things in the entire game:
General that got buffed with the 2/4 healing gives +1/+0 to your general, Grandmaster Zir if buffed and then becoming a general and Vaath’s BBS. If I omit any other possibility of being useful please let me know, it was an honest oversight in that case and I’ll be interested to see what I forgot.

Also, yes, in my deck he really shines, running 3x Consuming Rebirth, 3x Darkfire Sacrifice, 2x Lurking Fear (I only have 2) and am mostly only summoning it if I can use one of those that turn for benefit/tempo.

EDIT: maybe you mean to give him ‘dispel all enemy minions and destroy 1 enemy artifact’? That would increase his value maybe enough that some might run it… like… 5 people more :stuck_out_tongue:


#15

@Aeruniel

Hahah no I just mean dispel the enemy general as well as minions.

If you’re using him as your only dispel, it just doesn’t work because of that loophole.

He’s pretty good otherwise, but it’s nearly impossible to justify him and other dispel just to cover your bases.


#16

But there’s no single dispel I ever use as my only form of dispel… So yeah, that’s kind of a no-brainer that he isn’t, to me.


#17

@Aeruniel

Right, but most people shoehorn in at least ephemeral. When they nerfed it, I wasn’t really surprised, as it was plainly better than nearly every other Neutral 2 Drop, and on par with all of the best of them.

I just think each dispel card should be good enough to stand alone, so you aren’t forced to take either all of them out of panic, or basically given the illusion of choice about Ephemeral and everything else. =/


#18

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